Victory Through Deference

Legend of the Five Rings card from A Line in the Sand, Shattered Empire, Three Dynasties

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Card Text

As a Focus Effect, after you win this duel, remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game.
Invest : Draw a card.
Battle/Open: Remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. You may target a Personality and remove one of his abilities or boldface keywords (this turn). Take an additional action.

Focus Value

4

Legality

A Brother's Destiny (Ivory Edition), A Brother's Destiny (Twenty Festivals), Shattered Empire, Three Dynasties

Deck

Fate

Story

2013 World Champion - Tom Kirchgesner

Printings

Rules Q&A

• Q: Can vtd remove cavalry from a personality that is granted by the camel mounts trait?
  A: Yes.
  See Keywords. Alex Jones, "Camel mounts vs Victory Through Deference", 28 Jul 2015
• Q: I have 2 different unique experienced versions of the same personality in my deck, one in play and one showing in my provinces. If I use Victory Through Deference to remove the Unique boldface keyword from the one in play, can I then recruit the other? Will they continue to remain in play the following turn?
  If both my opponent and I have the same unique personality in play, what will happen if I try to resolve Egg of Pan Ku Experienced limited action targeting my opponents Unique?
  A: Yes, if you remove Unique via Victory Through Deference, you may bring another copy of the Unique Personality into play. Since Uniqueness is only a restriction on entering play, both will remain in play when the Unique keyword returns.
  The Egg of P'an Ku experienced ignores restrictions due to its text, and therefore can copy a Unique Personality without problem. Jon Palmer, "Unique questions", 4 Jul 2015
• Q: Reinforced Yari Will only attach to an Infantry Personality. This Personality cannot gain Cavalry...
  I have a Cavalry Personality. Cavalry is removed with Victory Through Deference. I attach a Reinforced Yari.
  1. Does the end of an effect which removed a keyword count as gaining (or attempting to gain) the keyword?
  Assuming yes, and the personality remains Infantry:
  2. If the above personality was a Shugenja with Interrupt the Void's Flow attached, what happens if the unit removes itself from the game the following turn? Does the Yari fail to reattach? Or would the trait from the Yari track while removed from the game?
  (Void Interrupt: Negate a Battle action. Destroy this Spell. Remove the caster's unit from the game, keeping all attachments and tokens, and ignoring leaving-play effects. Return it to play before the turn ends, ignoring entering-play costs and effects)
  A: 1. Yes. When the removal effect is done, it regains the trait, and Reinforced Yari will prevent this. - REVERSED, SEE BELOW
  2. Attachments do not reattach when the unit re-enters play, so the Yari is fine. While the Yari is out of play, it is not suppressing Cavalry, so the Personality will regain Cavalry, and will be a Cavalry Personality with a Reinforced Yari when they re-enter. Jon Palmer, "Reinforced Yari and removing/returning keywords", 7 Jun 2015
• Q: I have COaaT in play, my opponent removes the ability, (with Victory Through Deference) give by COaaT to my personality.
  If I move my personality out of the battle and then back in, does COaaT reapply the trait?
  If I move another personality in, does it apply the trait to them?
  If COaaT reapplies the ability in the first example, can VTD actually remove it at all, as the trait is constantly being reapplied?
  A: See Effects, Continuous: Finally, non-triggered traits like “Your Samurai have +1F” have continuous effects that apply while the card is in play and all conditions on the trait, if any, are met (see Traits, previous section). If a continuous effect ceases to apply, then is reapplied, it is a new effect; for example, a Force bonus that was negated by an ongoing effect will reassert itself.
  The trait on Come One at a Time is a continuous trait, granting an ability to a sole defender. This ability may be removed by Victory Through Deference, and while he remains as the sole defender at the battlefield, he does not get it back.
  If the conditions granting the ability become false - either because he leaves the battlefield, or because another defender joins him - the effect granting the ability ends.
  If the conditions granting the ability then become true again - that is, there is once more a solitary defender, which could be the original one or a new one - a new effect begins granting a new copy of the ability, unaffected by Victory Through Deference. Alex Jones, "VTD and Come One at a Time.", 13 May 2015
• Q: Previous ruling: Short Season and Hidden Machinations.
  Here, Victory through deference doesn't give you a permission to take an additional action, it just stipulates "Take an additional action."
  In that case, if Short Season has resolved, will VtD allow you to play it plus an additional action? --- Short Season Each player may take only one Limited or Open action per turn (after this Event enters play). Open: If you have not taken an action this phase, put this Event into play. Discard it after the current active player's next Action Phase begins.
  Victory Through Deference As a Focus Effect, after you win this duel, remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. Invest : Draw a card. Battle/Open: Remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. You may target a Personality and remove one of his abilities or boldface keywords (this turn). Take an additional action.
  A: Victory Through Deference gives you a window to play an additional action, overriding the normal back-and-forth action sequence. However, it does not specifically contradict Short Season's limit on the number of actions, so you may not take a second action after playing Victory Through Deference. Jon Palmer, "Victory through deference and Short Season", 1 May 2015
• Q: Hi, a question about timing of focus traits: VTD: "As a Focus Effect, after you win this duel, remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game."
  I focus VTD, and I win the duel. My opponent focused a card that I wish to remove from the game. Can I remove that card?
  My opponent claims that his focus card has not entered his discard pile until after the VTD trait resolves, but I disagree because the trait says "after you win this duel" which I assume means the focus cards have already been discarded.
  A: If you follow the steps of the duel, you'll note that discarding focused cards is the very last step. Triggered effects on who "wins" or "loses" happen when those are determined, which means the cards are not in the discard pile at that time. Jon Palmer, "Focus Trait of Victory Through Deference", 23 Mar 2015
• Q: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic. ... r#p1444575
  I understand this ruling on VtD played on Personality with attached Spell with "This Shugenja..." trait, but i'm still confused with GiW text "This Spell's Invest effects last while it remains attached to the Shugenja".
  So if someone play VtD (and name Shugenja) on my Personality with GiW attached with maximum Invest paid:
  a) all Invest effects "This Shugenja..." are turned off this round and come back next turn b) all Invest effects "This Shugenja..." are unaffected and Personality is still Cavalry, Conqeror, has +2F and has Battle ability.
  A: As noted in the ruling post, "the Shugenja (Samurai, etc.)" had always been a mere term of reference, and not intended to fail if the card lost that keyword. The question was about "This" and the way it was resolved was, to bring it back into line with the use of "the," again, making it only a point of reference and not requiring the keyword to be sustained.
  So to answer your multiple choice, the answer is b; the effects stay on after losing Shugenja. Thanks for asking! Roger Giner-Sorolla, "Guidance in War and Victory Through Deference (again)", 15 Feb 2015
• Q: If I use Interrupt the Void's Flow to negate another player's VTD, but he invested 1, does he still get to draw the card?
  A: No, as the Invest trait's effects "are added to the action’s effects ... and become part of the action." Alex Jones, "Negating Victory Through Deference with Interrupt the Void's Flow", 28 Jan 2015
• Q: Greetings!
  My question is what happens when I have a Personality with 3 Chi in play with Aranai Sensei and then the opponent removes the Tactician keyword from my Presonality. Will it be removed until the end of the turn? Or will Aranai Sensei reapply the keyword since it is a trait and it is continuous and not restricted to once per turn ( as it is stated in the advanced rulebook). I couldn't find any answers for this question in the Rules forum I hope it's not a repost. Thanks for the help in advance.
  A: While the ongoing effect of Victory Through Deference is removing the Tactician keyword granted by Aranai Sensei, the keyword stays removed.
  However, Victory Through Deference's effect will not prevent a new, different effect granting the Tactician keyword. Alex Jones, "Aranai Sensei + Victory Through Deference", 14 Jan 2015
• Q: VtD text: Battle/Open: Remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. You may target a Personality and remove one of his abilities or boldface keywords (this turn). Take an additional action.
  Isawa Tenkawa action: Air Open, : After the next time this phase another player's action targets one of your cards, negate its (remaining) effects.
  Question:
  Is Tenkawa`s action going to negate VtD removing cards from discard pile? Is removing cards a cost or just one of the effects of VtD?
  Regards.
  Mod Edit: Please use complete and correct card titles when asking questions. Thanks! -- MB2001
  A: Isawa Tenkawa's action will never negate the removal of cards by Victory Through Deference.
  The removal of cards is an effect, but it doesn't target, therefore it won't trigger his negation. The optional targeting of a Personality COULD trigger Tenkawa's negation, if VTD's player chooses to even use it, knowing it would just be negated, but it occurs after the cards have been removed anyway, and negation won't retroactively undo instant effects such as those. Brook Cunningham, "Negating Victory Through Deference by Isawa Tenkawa", 29 Oct 2014
• Q: The initial question was posted over two months ago, answered, reversed, and reversed again right before Worlds.
  There have been emails sent, messages sent, and reminders posted on this forum - all unanswered.
  It has now been two weeks since the last update and it is still "Under Discussion."
  Two months to get a final decision on a rules question is a little ridiculous especially given the visibility given to the instigator Victory Through Deference.
  Can we please get a final word on this?
  A: Answered here. Roger Giner-Sorolla, "Guidance of War.... Please make a decision!", 26 Oct 2014
• Q: Hi, just stumbled upon a minor question: if I remove shugenja from personality with attached Guidance that has 4g invest (This shugenja has the ability "Battle: Ranged 3 attack") does the battle action remains as it is granted on personality or does it perish with all bonuses granted by spells to personality that is no longer able to cast it?
  Victory Through Deference Battle/Open: Remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. You may target a Personality and remove one of his abilities or boldface keywords (this turn). Take an additional action.
  Guidance in War This Spell's Invest effects last while it remains attached to the Shugenja. Invest : This Shugenja has Cavalry. Invest : This Shugenja has Conqueror. Invest : This Shugenja has +2F. Invest : This Shugenja has the ability, "Battle: Ranged 3 Attack."
  A: All the ongoing effects of Guidance in War's Invest traits are permanently ended if the Personality loses Shugenja.
  See the Comprehensive Rules, Special Wording Rules, References (p45-46): On an attachment, "this Personality" refers to the Personality in the attachment's unit. "This" before a keyword (for example, "this Shugenja") refers to the Personality in the attachment's unit if he has that keyword. If he does not, then the reference fails. Alex Jones, "Guidance in War", 8 Oct 2014
• Q: Hello,
  Let's say I play Victory through Deference (as a battle action) and my opponent negates it with the Sun Returns.
  Can I still invest 1g to get the card draw? I ask because invest is technically a trait and I don't think we have any cards in the current environment that can stop traits from triggering.
  Would the answer be different if they used the scorpion box?
  Just trying to understand mechanically where Invest on Fate cards falls.
  Cheers!
  Victory Through Deference: Invest : Draw a card. Battle/Open: Remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. You may target a Personality and remove one of his abilities or boldface keywords (this turn). Take an additional action.
  The Sun Returns: Interrupt: Bow your target unbowed Tactician. Negate the effects of a Battle or Engage action.
  The Shadowed Estate of the Scorpion: Tireless Open: Name a Fate card, or name a Dynasty card in play. Negate the effects of the next action from a card with that title.
  A: The Sun Returns would also negate the card draw.
  Comprehensive Rules, page 55, "An Invest cost on a Strategy.... If it creates distinct effects, as opposed to just modifying the action, the are added to the action's effects, resolving last, and become part of the action." Brook Cunningham, "Negate a Strategy + Invest", 9 Sep 2014
• Q: [OBH] Seeing Victory Through Deference made me think of a question: If it targets an Oni in the discard pile, can it be cancelled by Undetectable Enemy.
  A: No. The Focus Effect is not an action.
  I can't easily look it up right now, but I believe you can't target cards out of play unless it specifically says you can, so the VtD action can't target a discarded Oni.
  (Replying to a player: "It specifically says target cards in discard piles to remove from play(/Banish). So that part definitely works. My main question because of the no targeting in discard piles: if the cancel action works as it technically targets a card that targets a card in the discard pile, but refers to a keyword …") You lost me.
  Does it help to point out that the banished cards in the action are not targeted? Brook Cunningham, "Sun and Moon #rules-questions", 21 May 2026