Death Poem

Legend of the Five Rings card from The Truest Test

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Card Text

Open: Honorable Personalities have +1F while opposed and attacking. Before any Personality is destroyed during a battle this turn, rehonor him.

Focus Value

1

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Race for the Throne (Samurai)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rules Q&A

• Q: I may just be stupid, but asking for clarification on this : http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68345.
  What exactly happens when I reduce a personality's chi to 0 during a heated discussion:
  A) The death is negated and the 0 chi is ignored for the rest of the battle B) The death is negated, and the chi penalty is constantly re-checking and being negated C) The death is negated than...something I'm not seeing
  Sorry if it's blatantly obvious and I'm missing something, but I can't make anythign regarding Heated Discussion and Chi death.
  A: D) None of the above.
  Actually, thanks directly to your pointing out the 0-Chi/Heated Discussion infinity problem, the rules for 0 Chi death have recently been clarified in regard to substitution effects (emphasis mine below):
  http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Specific_stats: "This destruction from zero Chi is continuously applied. Special rules apply to its negation. Ongoing and instantaneous effects that negate destruction, such as the trait "Before this card is destroyed: Negate the destruction," will not negate destruction from zero Chi (see Effects). Only a continuous negation effect (for example, "This Personality cannot be destroyed" as a trait), or an effect that specifically refers to the zero Chi rule (for example, "Until the end of the turn, he is not destroyed for having 0 Chi") can overcome the Personality's destruction.
  This rule also applies to effects that substitute some other effect, such as dishonoring, for destruction. If the substitution is continuous or refer specifically to zero Chi, the substitution is effective. In this case, the substitution happens once, and destruction from zero Chi is suspended while the conditions of substitution hold. If the substitution comes from an ongoing or instantaneous effect, then the substitution fails.
  [CLARIFIED and expanded to cover substitution, May 30 2008]"
  Now, the instantaneous effect of substituting dishonor for death fails in the specific case of death from 0 Chi. He's dead, Jim. Brook Cunningham, "Heated Discussion, Death Poem and 0 chi", 30 May 2008
• Q: REgarding the ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68332, lets say I add another card to the chain of the effect.
  I am playing Dragon Magistrates, using the new W&D person, Kitsuki Mayako (relevant text: After another player's Personality is dishonored: Gain 1 Honor. as a trait). I play Death peom during my limited phase, and start a heated discussion targeting a 2 chi beserker. I sneak in to the battle and Wounded in battle, reducing the Beserkers chi to 0. Heated discussion negates his death, dishonors him and Mayako gains me one honor. The person still has 0 chi, so therefore attempts to die again.
  A: This is not what happens.
  Heated Discussion creates an ongoing conditional effect, rather than a continuous effect. There is a substitution of dishonour for death each time a death would occur, rather than a continuous negation of the death. As clarified here, an ongoing effect is insufficient to negate destruction from 0 chi: Alex Jones, "Heated Discussion, Death Poem and 0 chi", 30 May 2008
• Q: I believe MacBeth is misreading the cards.
  A: Oh, he doesn't do that. Misreads portents to think they mean he should be King of Scotland, maybe -- but not cards. Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: He's saying that both cards are trying to do the same thing, but they're not - Death Poem inserts something before destruction, whereas Heated Discussion replaces the destruction with something else entirely. Personalities still die under Death Poem.
  A: I'm sorry I wasn't more specific above. The "same thing" that both cards do is create Indefinite conditional effects. I see, in my first reply, I accidentally flip-flopped Death Poem and Heated Discussion, saying that the former caused the "instead" effects when it was the latter (fixing!). Sorry if that muddled things, but the answer is still correct. Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: The question, as I understand it, is what happens when both are in effect? Does Death Poem's rehonoring occur before or after the dishonoring? Is it your choice? Does it even occur, since Heated Discussion specifies that no one will be destroyed in this battle?
  A: Once more, with feeling:
  1. Both create Indefinite conditional effects. These effects are timed to the exact same trigger ("before any Personality is destroyed... (D/d)uring (the/a) battle..."), which means...
  2. The active player chooses which is applied first. Before its destruction, he could have a Personality Rehonor (due to Death Poem) and then be dishonored instead (due to Heated Discussion), or he could have it be dishonored instead (due to HD) and then Rehonor (due to DP). Ah! Ah! Don't think you've caught me on this second example; just because the destruction is replaced with dishonoring first doesn't mean Death Poem's effect loses its trigger and doesn't happen. Please see this ruling if you don't believe me.
  3. As I told Nolian (and, ironically, as he said himself, "the rule sheet Stronger than Steel says that this is not a negation of destruction"), Heated Discussion doesn't stop destruction for the whole battle before it begins; it changes each individual destruction just before each occurs. (See #1) Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: Wouldn't Death Poem's effect never trigger during Heated Discussion? In a Heated Discussion, death has already been substituted by dishonoring instead throughout the entire battle. There is no trigger for Death Poem's effect because it already happened the moment you played it until the battle ends.
  A: Ah, well... no, no, and no (in that order).
  The problem is, you're not seeing accurately what Heated Discussion is doing. It doesn't change destruction to dishonoring once, and then have that effect last for the entire battle. What it does is change destruction each time it occurs ("During the battle, before any Personality is destroyed, dishonor him instead.").
  That's the same thing that Death Poem is doing. And, although the effect is different, it has the exact same timing trigger ("Before any Personality is destroyed during a battle...").
  Thus, the active player chooses the which effect happens first each time that trigger occurs (but, I'll mention again, both effects will happen regardless of the order chosen; see the Kyoso ruling link above). Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: In my limited phase, I play Death Poem (Honorable Personalities have +1F while opposed and attacking. Before any Personality is destroyed during a battle this turn, rehonor him.) Later in my limited phase, I start a heated discussion.
  During the heated discussion battle, I attempt to destory one of my opponent's people. As the active player, Do I choose the order in which both of the before death effects resolve (Heated Discussion's death negation and Death Poems rehonoring) or does Heated Discussions effect somehow over ride Death poem?
  A: Both Death Poem's and Heated Discussion's effects have the same trigger and are the same type of effect. Thus, as the active player, you would decide the order they occur.
  Citation, from the order in which triggers are resolved: "D. Apply any delayed effects that resolved previously and are timed to the trigger (such as, “After the next time this turn he assigns…”) The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply."
  Also note, no matter which you choose to happen first, they will both occur. Even if you choose Heated Discussion to go first, and a Personality dishonors "instead" of being destroyed, that doesn't erase the fact that Death Poem's trigger happened and that its effect will take place*. (See this ruling about Kyoso no Oni Exp3 for a similar circumstance.)
  *fixed example sentence via edit. Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 22 May 2008