Demented Craftsman

Legend of the Five Rings card from Words and Deeds

Card Type

Holding

Gold Cost

2

Keywords

Legacy

Card Text

After this card enters play, lose 1 Honor; if you are a Spider Clan player you may instead gain 1 Honor.
w: Produce 2 Gold.

Legality

Race for the Throne (Samurai)

Deck

Dynasty

Printings

Rules Q&A

• Q: A Spider deck with any personalities with printed honor losses, regardless of the fact those losses never happen (meaning any Spider personalities with honor losses) can never use Lies, Lies, Lies.
  A: As of now, correct. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 4 Mar 2009
• Q: These rulings are shocking me.
  How can Demented Craftsman be a conditional honor loss? When a player from any clan other than Spider clan announces he's bringing into play a Demented Craftsman, the outcome of the trait triggering is known: he'll lose 1 honor. No choices here.
  According to Zen's ruling: And one last clarification: The Honor losses have to be unconditional (i.e., not dependent on a player choice or outcome of an action, etc.). (Emphasis mine)
  There's no definition of "conditional" in the Comprehensive rules glossary (probably because that term isn't printed in cards under Samurai Edition, after the Rosoku Sensei mess in Lotus), so tentatively the using of this term in rulings is a double-edged sword. But using the Legacy rules: An effect is conditional if, at the time the action, Event, or trait producing that effect begins resolving, it has not yet been determined whether the effect will occur. (Again, Emphases mine)
  I believe that the triggered trait of Demented Craftsman creates only a conditional honor loss if you're a Spider Clan player. If you're not, then it creates a non-conditional honor loss, because you know that no matter what you'll lose 1 Honor. It has been determined at the moment your stronghold isn't Spider Clan, and you don't have a choice here. And hence it should restrict playing Lies, Lies, Lies... in the case of non-Spider players.
  Alternatively, can I have a Samurai rules definition of "conditional effects"? So that we can discern whether Lies, Lies, Lies can be played or not...
  P.S. The request of a definition of "Conditional effects" is honest: I don't like the Legacy definition because it's a little bit ambiguous.
  A: The "blind cards" ruling (http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Blind_cards_rule) is at work here.
  Since there's no current definition, I'm going to fall back on old general principles. When you pick up and read Demented Craftsman -- or any card, for that matter, and ask the question, "Does this card cause an honor loss?", there are three possible answers: "Yes," "No," and "Maybe." If the answer is maybe, the effect is conditional. The specific wording on Demented Craftsman is unusual (which is why I initially fluffed the ruling), but that doesn't change the answer. Does it cause an honor loss? Maybe. Depends on what your stronghold is. But, following the blind cards rule, you don't consider what stronghold is in play. You read the card text in isolation.
  We'll see what we might do about a better definition. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 12 Feb 2009
• Q: Just to be sure i understand well the last answer.
  If you have in play a Demented Craftsman. You could play Lies, lies, lies... and that even if you are not a spider clan player ?
  A: That is correct. Dan Jacobson, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 12 Feb 2009
• Q: Previous Topic
  Definition of Instead.
  The substitution of Y for X is not a negation of X.
  I'm still a little confused by the explanation.
  I have a few followup questions: Doesn't the "if" modifier, as in "if you are a Spider Clan player you may instead gain 1 Honor", then make the substitution conditional, which is what Lies, Lies, Lies checks for in determining the nature of the effect?
  Additionally, by the definition of substitution, wouldn't the card effectively then read: After this card enters play: Gain 1 Honor., which is allowable by Lies, Lies, Lies?
  Or is it disallowed simply because although the substitution is conditional, it still happens singularly, meaning the card's effect is effectively the same?
  I guess I'm just looking for the full logic by which the card's wording prevents Lies, Lies, Lies from being played.
  A: Having thought on this a little more, the previous post was wrong. The honor loss is conditional. Sorry for the goof. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 11 Feb 2009
• Q: (W)ould playing Demented Craftsman restrict me from playing Lies, Lies, Lies?
  A: Yes. The honor loss ("Lose 1 honor") is not conditional. The Spider clause is a substitution, not a condition. See http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_I-J#Instead. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 11 Feb 2009
• Q: Demented Craftsman: LEGACY After this card enters play: Lose 1 honor; if you are a spider clan player you may instead gain one honor. Bow this card, produce 2 gold.
  My question is that if you ARE a spider clan player and searching your deck for a legacy due to going second, would you gain 1 honor for it? or would you only be able to do this if you were to search for a legacy during the end phase for not buying any holdings that turn?
  A: You would gain (or lose) the Honor in either case.
  At the time you would bring a Legacy Holding into play for going second, the game has begun (Citation); traits on cards in play are in effect (as in the new Crane Stronghold, Kyuden Kyotei, which directly affects what Holdings its player could search for at this step) and, likewise, Demented Craftsman's trait will trigger. Brook Cunningham, "Demented Craftsman and Searching for Before game Legacy", 5 Jun 2008