Determination

Legend of the Five Rings card from Samurai Edition, Rise of the Shogun

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Keywords

Dark Virtue

Card Text

Reaction: Before you announce an action, target your performing Samurai to negate effects which negate the action's effects or change its targeting. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.

Focus Value

4

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Race for the Throne (Samurai)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, "Determination 0G 4FV Dark Virtue Reaction: After you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action cannot have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game." [Erratum, 24 November 2008] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 132
• An action that is affected by Determination can negate an earlier action that had also been affected by Determination. [ML, 30 July 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 132
• Does not circumvent a card's own self-negation clauses or self-imposed minimums or maximums (e.g., "This cannot raise a player's honor above his starting Family honor;" "This cannot reduce Chi below 1"). [ML, 13 November 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 132

Rules Q&A

• Q: Just to clarify on this (viewtopic.php?f=59&t=97704) ruling:
  I believe that the player asking the question was stating that the player playing 'Revenge' attacked into him and the defender's first action was a kill action (ex. A Stain Cleansed), and as such, the Attacker's first action was to play 'Revenge'. I believe that this would indeed destroy the card targeted by 'Revenge', would it not?
  Just clarifying.
  Thanks!
  Relevant Text: Revenge Dark Virtue • Determination Battle: Choose your performing unbowed Samurai and target an enemy card without attachments: Bow it. Destroy it if another player's action has destroyed one of your personalities since the end of your last Battle action this battle.
  A: No. That fulfills half of the kill condition "another player's action destroyed one of your Personalities" but not the other half "since the end of your last Battle action this battle."
  If you have not taken a Battle action this battle, there is no window of "since the end of your last Battle action this battle." Therefore Revenge will never kill if is your first Battle action. Jon Palmer, "Revenge and its timing", 1 May 2012
• Q: Sir can i ask about this question regarding hired killer and determination.The enemy have a Suitengu's Surge he use it to survive in hired killer but a play determination.Regarding of the ruling of this can you verify what is right action for this.
  A: Determination prevents negation of the Hired Killer.
  However, Suitengu's Surge doesn't negate Hired Killer, it removes the target from play so that when the effects of Hired Killer activate, they can't affect it.
  So, Suitengu's Surge will still stop Hired Killer, even if you played Determination with it. Brook Cunningham, "Hired Killer + Determination vs Suitengu's Surge", 9 Apr 2011
• Q: Could my opponent play Determination with Sneak Attack? How would that afect he above scenario if at all?
  A: Determination is legal to play, but would change nothing, because the effects of Sneak Attack are not being negated nor is the targeting being changed. Zen Faulkes, "Shinjo Kai Li Vs. Sneak Attack", 4 May 2009
• Q: I recently read a post asking if Determination would allow a player to gain honour above the allowed amount from In time of war, and the reply by Kaiu Genji that it could, however, i was under the understanding that because In Time Of War uses the phrase a player's family honour can not rise over it's value when the turn began + 5, that it would follow the standard rules for Cannot effects and therefore not be negation but a total inability to go over that limit....just curious if i'm getting my annoying rules right, the whole cannot/may not/ can't thing still confuses me....
  A: Mod request: If you are referring to an earlier post, please link to it. Thanks!
  I think the post in question is here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=75048
  "Can not" has two possible meanings, not one.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot
  You're confusing the use of "cannot" in card text with its use in rules text. Zen Faulkes, "Determination + In time of war", 24 Apr 2009
• Q: Shiraki doesn't discard the Dark Virtue, only shows it.
  A: The question was about using the same Determination for (a) its own action and (b) to pay the cost of another action. The former comes first and discards Determination, before it can be used for the latter. Zen Faulkes, "Daigotsu Shiraki with Determination", 5 Apr 2009
• Q: Does this change your answer?
  A: It made it longer. Zen Faulkes, "Daigotsu Shiraki with Determination", 5 Apr 2009
• Q: (I) play Sneak Attack. As my Sneak Attack action, I play Superior Strategist and use Determination with it to prevent it from being negated. Does Determination also prevent the effects of the card played from being negated(?)
  A: No. The effect of being given an extra action is the opportunity to use that action, not the action itself. Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Extra Actions", 5 Apr 2009
• Q: Does the new wording on Determination allow Shiraki to show a Determination to pay the cost of her Battle ability and then play that same Determination for its own effects?
  A: No.
  Order of an action:
  Announce action.
  <-- Trigger for Determination goes here.
  Target.
  Pay costs. <-- Shiraki's cost of showing a Dark Virtue goes here -- oops, it's in the discard pile. Zen Faulkes, "Daigotsu Shiraki with Determination", 5 Apr 2009
• Q: Where does the window for Misdirection exist?
  Ranged Attack | ?---> in here? | Determination Target
  A: No.
  1. Announce Ranged Attack action 2. React to after announcement with Determination 3. Make any non-effects (read: Constraints) targeting; for example, the performing Follower in Yoritomo Sunagawa's action. 4. Now is the time for Misdirection, just before any effects targeting (i.e. the Ranged Attack's target). Brook Cunningham, "Determination Errata Vs Misdirection", 4 Apr 2009
• Q: So by the time that my opponent targets and he didn't play Determination, am I safe to assume that I can still react with it with Misdirection (since in playing Determination you can legally wait for your opponent for Reinforce the Gates)?
  A: Determination and Reinforce have the same timing. In the round of Reactions to "after announcement", one could be played first, then the other, or the other way around.
  If your opponent is beginning to indicate the target for the effects of his Ranged Attack, then yes, he has passed by the "after announcement" timing step in which you could play Reinforce or he could play Determination.
  If there's some argument over him skipping your chance to React or you skipping his, that's an issue for a judge (as per your link above). Brook Cunningham, "Determination Errata Vs Misdirection", 4 Apr 2009
• Q: In the answer given to the question:
  Seppuku: An act of ritual suicide. If an effect directs a Personality to commit seppuku, apply the following effects: “Rehonor the Personality, then destroy him; these effects can not be negated.” Additionally, all players have the following ability. Reaction: Any number of times per turn, before you lose Honor from an action that targeted or was performed by one of your Courtier or Samurai Personalities: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.
  If you use the Seppuku reaction and react with Masters of Steel to negate the destruction, you'll need to react to Masters of Steel with Determination to negate the Seppuku's "these effects cannot be negated". Then, assuming you do that, the Personality will be rehonoured, but not destroyed, and because the Seppuku didn't destroy him, the honour loss will not be reduced.
  Alex AkodoGilador L5R CCG Rules Junta
  MY Question is how does this interact with the comprehensive rules on CAN NOT which states the action taken from the rule book is illegal and thus not able to be announced to allow for Determination to be played
  From Comprehensive rules:
  2. When found in game rules text, the phrase “cannot” applies to the legality of doing something in the first place; it does not imply that doing that thing is merely negated.
  Thank you for your answer, and please re title to one with greater specificity
  [Mod edit: Thread title. - ZF]
  A: Seppuku's effects are game effects, not game rules, so "cannot" is interpreted as effect negation rather than as illegalisation. Alex Jones, "masters of steel and seppuku", 26 Mar 2009
• Q: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=74660
  I don't believe I understand. For, it has been said that I can use Determination to destroy Sozen, but I cannot use Determination to target a nomen effected card with a dishonored personality. Why is one negation different than another?
  A: Because Sozen's instance of "cannot" IS negation, but Nomen's is NOT.
  See here, point "1." and the "EXCEPTION" within it. Brook Cunningham, "Bayushi Nomen and Determination", 16 Mar 2009
• Q: Regarding this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=74204
  Determination reads: Dark Virtue Reaction: After you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action cannot have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game
  Determination's "remove from game" only happens after the personality is destroyed. Takuro's trigger also happens after he is destroyed. Why does determination have priority? Can you please explain? It seems like determination just adds an extra effect to the action, which would trigger after the destruction; I know the situation is different, but I know that cut them off can be used against doomed intentions before the person playing doomed will have the opportunity to take a second action, and it seems like the situation is similar here.
  A: Doomed Intentions creates an additional battle action: 2. Some effects grant an “additional” action of a given type (usually Battle, Open or Limited). When an action or triggered trait grants an additional action, the timing of the additional action is delayed, such that the action is taken once the action or trait that granted it has ended, and the opportunity to play Reactions to the end of the action or trait has passed.
  Cut Them Off reacts "After an action resolves", so the additional action from Doomed Intentions is delayed until after this.
  The case of Determination vs Shosuro Takuro is very different. Determination doesn't create an effect that triggers after the action resolves, it creates an effect (technically, an indefinite conditional effect) that triggers after the original action "destroys any Personality". Similarly, Takuro doesn't wait for the end of the resolution of the action, he reacts "after [he] is destroyed". This brings us to Timing, Resolving timing conflicts: If two or more reactions, triggered traits, or rules procedures are triggered at the same point in time, follow this sequence from A through F to resolve their order. D. Apply any delayed effects or indefinite conditional effects that resolved previously and are timed to the trigger (such as, “After the next time this turn he assigns…” or "After each time this turn a Personality assigns...") The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply. If different sources each give multiple delayed or indefinite conditional effects to the same trigger, the active player decides which source's effects apply first, but multiple such effects from the same source all happen before such effects from the next source happen. F. Reactions may now be taken following an action round procedure. Starting with the active player, each player in turn order has the option to take a Reaction to the trigger or pass. When all players pass consecutively, no more Reactions to that occurrence of the trigger may be taken.
  Determination's ICE triggers in step D. Takuro would trigger in step F, except he's no longer around. Alex Jones, "Determination vs shosuro takuro", 25 Feb 2009
• Q: I bring Tsuruchi Etsui XP1 into play, targeting Daidoji Kikaze XP with Etsui's trait. Can Daidoji Kikaze XP use Determination with his battle ability to move to a battlefield if Etsui is not bowed or out of play?
  A: The "cannot" on the Experienced Tsuruchi Etsui is simple negation (http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot), so yes. Zen Faulkes, "Tsuruchi Etsui XP and Determination", 16 Feb 2009
• Q: Hey All, Question about the new rules: Since "will not" and "may not" do not connotate negation, does this mean that "can not" is not negation as well (for the purposes of how Determination, as well as other cards, interact)? Thanks
  A: No.
  The rules laid out for "will not" and "may not" in the GotE rules sheet are specific to those terms.
  "Can not" and "cannot" are still negation, as per their definition here. Brook Cunningham, "New Rules with Glory of the Empire", 14 Feb 2009
• Q: My opponent, the active player, is going to play a battle action. He has a Determination in hand, and I have a Misdirection in hand.
  Determination says: Dark Virtue Reaction: After you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action cannot have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  Misdirection says: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action’s effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead. (Emphasis on triggers mine)
  Before the errata, Determination and Misdirection had a distinct timing separated by the announcement of the action. Now, the timing is different but in a very, very subtle way. Determination comes before, but nothing really happens between the triggers. So the point where the timing for Determination ends and the timing for Misdirection begins is only a thin line. While playing, you don't usually ask for reactions for every possible trigger.
  So my opponent announces his action (eg Rout), and before he chooses the targets, I announce I'm using Misdirection, but then he (cunningly) claims he hadn't had the chance to react to the announcement because I rushed to react before he chose targets, and plays his Determination now knowing that it trumps the Misdirection I planned to play.
  I could ask perhaps "any reactions?", but then the player would suspect my next move and play the Determination. My special interest in "closing" the timing window shows that my interest is playing a Misdirection safely. I haven't really advanced too much.
  How should/may players determine that the timing window for Determination is closed and the timing window for reacting with Misdirection opens?
  A: This is a more of a Floor Rules issue than one for this forum, I fear. Pleas confer with your TO. Brook Cunningham, "Determination Errata Vs Misdirection", 14 Jan 2009
• Q: If I play Determination and then kill a personality in battle, can my opponent respond with Kakita Noriko?
  A: Yes. The destruction actually occurs, and is then followed by Determination's removal effect, so there's a legal trigger for Kakita Noriko's ability. Zen Faulkes, "Kakita Noriko and Determination", 20 Dec 2008
• Q: Does a personality outside of the game have stats like personal honor that can be referenced?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Physically_marked_ ... ut_of_play: "Cards that are not in play or in a resolution, entering-play or focusing area have the following limitations:
  "They cannot be targeted. "Their continuous traits do not produce effects. "They are not affected by effects. "Abilities on them cannot be used, and triggered traits on them are not triggered."
  Nothing about stats there, so they are treated as normal.
  (Fixed.) Zen Faulkes, "Kakita Noriko and Determination", 20 Dec 2008
• Q: I play Blanketed Forest, and after I annouce its battle (units can't move in or out), I play Determination. if someone tries to move their samurai into the same battle with, let's say Unwavering Assault and Determination, would they have to play two copies of it, since Blanketed Forest's battle is protected with a determination?
  A: This one is basically dealt with here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67205
  Not exactly the same cards, but several.
  That said, the issue of multiple Determinations is very difficult for people to wrap their heads around, as seen here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66277 Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Blanketed Forest, and movement", 3 Dec 2008
• Q: I am confused regarding the new errata and this post.
  With the new change in timing for determination, the use of misdirection changes drastically.
  Situation: Player 1: Announces a warrior's challenge Before targets are chosen, Player 2: Announces Misdirection Player 1: Announces Determination Must Player 2 choose the exact same targets now?
  Relevant Card text: Determination (errata): Dark Virtue Reaction: After you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action cannot have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  Misdirection Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action’s effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead.
  Opinion: Used to be that with the different timing Misdirection could be stored for a later use, but now determination has become the new attacker's reinforce the gates making it such that the defensive player wastes the card.
  Obviously I hope this isn't the case, but I fear that there isn't any other real interpretation unless there is a clarification of rules timing to allow for reactions to be intimately tied to their triggers (i.e.: After Player 1 Announces the warrior's challenge and before the targets are chosen, If Player 2 asks player 1 "Are you going to determine the warrior's challenge?" and he/she responds with a "no" then Player 2 is free to play misdirection without it being canceled. Of course this will never happen, as a good player will lie and then destroy the misdirection with his determination because attacking players choose the order in which reactions occur.)
  Of course then again I am not a genius and I may have misunderstood card timing.
  [Mod edit: Thread title. -ZF]
  A: Determination (triggered by announcement) has always been played before Misdirection (triggered by targeting). The use of the two cards relative to each other has not changed. Zen Faulkes, "Determination and Misdirection", 27 Nov 2008
• Q: Continuing on this.
  How does that parse with Sozen's trait?
  Doesn't those 2 have the same designator {cannot - may not} which is overcome by Determination?
  A: Cannot =/= May not.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot:
  "When found in card text, and when referring to a type of cost or effect (e.g., bowing, Force bonuses), “cannot” (or "can not") means that a certain type of effect or cost is negated whenever it occurs."
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_M#May_not:
  ""May not" means that a player is prohibited from carrying out a procedure that is usually optional - for example, taking an action, assigning a unit, declaring an attack, bringing a Personality into play, or targeting a certain card - even if card effects make that procedure required...
  "May not" is not negation." Brook Cunningham, "Fortified Fields, Determination and Naval", 12 Nov 2008
• Q: In response to this thread:
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=70797
  1. I have Michio XP in play. 2. My opponent has only Toku in play and, in his hand, only actions that require unbowed personalities (+Determination). 3. My opponent announces and resolves Determination targetting Toku. 4. I bow Toku with Michio XP. 5. My opponent has no valid actions that he can announce at this point (since Determination happens before an action is announced).
  In the linked thread, Zen's answer from Oct 09, at 8:47 (since there was more than one) was a quotation from the rules archive that mentions "From the point when an action is announced...", however, when Michio XP's reaction is used, the action that Determination would have affected hasn't been announced yet, since Determination happens "Before you announce an action".
  Does my opponent pick an action to discard from his hand that would have been legal if I didn't react with Michio XP, and discard it, even though he technically never announced it?
  ~Andrew
  A: Ah, good point.
  Nothing happens, because nothing can happen. Nothing is attempted. Nothing fails. Nothing is discarded.
  This will usually need a judge to confirm in a tournament situation. Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Michio XP", 17 Oct 2008
• Q: In order to make sure my action goes through, I use Determination before destroying one of my opponent's personalities. Can he play Assigning Blame in response, or will Determination remove the personality before he has a chance to react?
  A: Both are after destruction, so Determination's delayed effect goes before the Reaction (see http://rules.l5r.com/Timing). Zen Faulkes, "Determination, Assigning Blame, created Personalities", 13 Oct 2008
• Q: My opponent controls a single nameless samurai and declares an attack and assigns him to one of my provinces. I do not defend but I do control an unbowed Michio Xp. My opponent proceeds to play Determination by targeting his lone samurai and I respond with Michio Xp by bowing his samurai. The only battle actions in his hand require him to target an unbowed personality at the current battlefield that he controls as part of the cost. What happens?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Abilities_and_acti ... _targeting: "From the point when an action is announced legally, to the point after reactions to a particular targeting have taken place, if anything interferes so that the particular required targeting can no longer be met (including reactions to the targeting itself), the action fails. Its effects do not resolve, further targeting does not take place, and its costs are waived. It is still considered taken, but not resolved. If it was on an Action card, the card is discarded normally." Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Michio XP", 9 Oct 2008
• Q: Why wouldn't using Determination on Michio's reaction be a violation fo the Good Faith Rule?
  A: There's a lot in the link in your post to which you could be referring. Let me assume that you mis-typed and meant, "Why would using Determination on Michio's Reaction be a violation of Good Faith?" and are curious about the original ruling, that Determination and Michio Exp's Reaction cannot be used in a vaccum with no other actions occurring. I'll try to explain this again as Zen has above:
  The trigger for taking Determination is "Before you announce an action"; this means that it has to be pre-determined that you will be announcing an action before you can meet its trigger and announce ITS action. So, if you cannot announce Determination before meeting Michio's trigger to announce HIS action, and you have nothing with which to trigger Michio except Determination resolving, then the sequence can never begin.
  Good Faith allows a sequence to begin that at first appears illegal but becomes legal over the course of the sequence. Two examples of that would be: 1) announcing a Ranged Attack with no legal target enemy card defending the province you're attacking, then reacting with Burn It Down to change the nature of the required targeting for the Ranged Attack, or 2) announcing Temple to Shinsei's action with no unbowed Shugenja to pay its cost, bowing the Temple first and Reacting to its bowing with Kyuden Asako to straighten a Shugenja and pay the action's remaining cost.
  However, Good Faith only applies to required targeting, meeting conditions, and paying costs, NOT Reaction triggers. You cannot invoke Good Faith to start a sequence of Reactions which will cause their own triggers to occur AFTER you've announced them.
  I hope I've made the correct assumptions as to what you were asking and have clarified the issue for you. If not, please try to be more specific as to what portion of the previous questions and answers were concerning you. Brook Cunningham, "Determination + Michio XP", 6 Oct 2008
• Q: A little more on the Michio Xp. + Determination.
  What would happen in the following situation. I have a Hired Killer and I want to make sure it goes through. I target my bowed samurai. The samurai has now proformed an action and is now a legal target for Michio's reaction. Does Determination now guard Michio's reaction or the next action that I perform (ie Hired Killer)? In other words, bowed samurai + Determination + Michio Xp is legal as long as I don't pass priority and perform an action?
  Thanks!
  A: As described, you are playing Determination in response to Hired Killer.
  To get Determination to affect the Experienced Michio's ability (which is possible), Michio would need to be responding to some other action. Or you would need a second Determination: one for Hired Killer, one for Michio. It would look roughly like:
  Determination #1 played in anticipation of Hired Killer.
  Personality targeted, providing trigger for Michio (Exp.).
  Determination #2 played in anticipation of the ability of Michio (Exp.).
  Experienced Michio's ability resolves, affected by Determination #2.
  Hired Killer resolves, affected by Determination #1. Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Michio XP", 17 Sep 2008
• Q: Michio exp: Reaction: After an action resolves: Bow or straighten a target Personality who performed it.
  Determination: Dark Virtue Reaction : Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  The situation is: I control a bowed samurai and an unbowed Michio XP, and I have a copy of Determination in my hand. I have no other cards with actions that could be legally announced.
  My evil plan is to announce a Determination and target my bowed samurai (hence he's performing it), then I announce Michio XP's reaction and straighten my target samurai who performed the Determination. Ie What I'm doing is reacting with Determination to Michio XP's reaction. But the trigger for Michio XP's reaction is the Determination itself. In Good Faith I know that after playing the Determination Michio XP will have a legal trigger and only other player's interference (such as True Strength) could prevent that from happening?
  Is this loop of mutual-triggering reactions legal (and therefore my samurai will straighten)? Or is there a way to prevent this paradox? So far I haven't found a rule preventing it but I bow to your wisdom.
  A: Not legal.
  You can't legally take an action right now (you'd need a Limited, Open, or Battle), so you can't play Determination. Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Michio XP", 14 Sep 2008
• Q: 2) A player attempts to target one of my courtiers with an action, reacting with a Determination. Would the action still redirect to Seibei. Now I am familiar with the ruling that Misdirection cannot redirect an action played with a determination, but Seibei is worded differently, specifically: "would target a Courtier at Seibei's location". This leads me to believe that the courtier was never targeted in the first place, thus no redirection needs to take place, and despite the Determination the action will still target Seibei instead of the courtier. Is this correct?
  A: Sorry, no. (Same citation link as above): "A phrase such as "before X would happen" is equivalent to "before X happens." The conditional mood indicated by "would" is irrelevant to the function of the "before" timing point." (This also applies to "when".) Brook Cunningham, "Shosuro Seibei and Targeting", 7 Sep 2008
• Q: In the original post here: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=69896
  Determination specifically removes the personality from the game after they are destroyed. Wouldn't that mean that Pekkle no Oni's Honor loss reaction would trigger at the same time as the removal? And if so, wouldn't therefore the active player decide which trigger resolves first?
  A: No.
  As described above, Determination creates a different type of triggered effect, a delayed effect*, compared to Pekkle's triggered trait. As described under Timing, and quoted above, these effects are resolved in an order specified by their type. Only if separate effects are of the same type - for example, two delayed effects or two triggered traits - does the active player decide the order in which those effects resolve.
  Alex
  (*) Technically, it's an indefinite conditional effect, but the difference isn't relevant here. Alex Jones, "Pekkle no Oni + Determination", 12 Aug 2008
• Q: Pekkle no Oni has the trait: 'After Pekkle is destroyed: Lose 10 Honor.' Determination's text: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  My opponent uses Hired Killer to destroy my Pekkle no Oni and wanting to be sure plays Determination as a Reaction to it. There are two effects that trigger after Pekkle's destruction: removing Pekkle from the game and me losing 10 Honor.
  1. Which of these effects occur first? 2. If Pekkle is removed from the game before the Honor loss, will the Honor loss trigger?
  Thank you!
  A: Timing: If two or more reactions, triggered traits, or rules procedures are triggered at the same point in time, follow this sequence from A through F to resolve their order. D. Apply any delayed effects or indefinite conditional effects that resolved previously and are timed to the trigger (such as, “After the next time this turn he assigns…” or "After each time this turn a Personality assigns...") E. Apply any triggered traits on cards.
  Determination creates a delayed effect that removes the Personality from the game and so falls under D. Pekkle's trait is a triggered trait and so falls under E.
  Pekkle no Oni is removed from the game before you lose 10 honour. Alex Jones, "Pekkle no Oni + Determination", 12 Aug 2008
• Q: Considering, for example, the scenario involving 2F Moshi Taya and 5F base Hida Bob with an Iron Tetsubo exchanging force with Determination taken as a reaction before Taya's Battle action was announced: Definitely, Taya will end up with 9F. Will Hida Bob end up with 2F or 9F?
  Moshi Taya Battle: Exchange the Force of one of your target Naval Personalities with the Force of a target Personality opposing him.
  Iron Tetsubo Negate all Force penalties on this Personality.
  Determination Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  1. Moshi Taya is currently at 2F. Hida Bob is at 9F.
  2. Iron Tetsubo grants Hida Bob a continous trait negating all force penalties on him. Continuous traits do not have a duration. They are "always on."
  3. When two stats are exchanged, their current values are noted. Then, each stat is set to the other's current value, simultaneously. Any changes to stat values from an exchange do count as bonuses or penalties.
  Various effects will set a stat to some particular value, such as effects that switch or copy stats. To set a stat to a value, give an appropriate bonus or penalty.
  Moshi Taya's force is set to 9F and that involves a +7F bonus. Hida Bob's force is set to 2F and that involves a -7F penalty.
  4. Taya's Battle action's effect is an ongoing effect.
  5. The effects of Determination are neither continous nor instantaneous. It is an ongoing effect affecting in this case Taya's Battle action. Ongoing effects last until the end of the turn in which they occur unless otherwise indicated. Ongoing effects do not end if the card they came from leaves play.
  The effect of Taya's Battle action cannot be negated and this is a non-continuous negation effect.
  6. The effect of Iron Tetsubo on Hida Bob is continous, specifically a continuous negation effect, since it is a non-triggered continuous trait.
  A: Duration of negation effects: "If a non-continuous negation effect uses “can not” wording, (such as, “Battle: A target Personality cannot be bowed,”) this is an ongoing effect that follows the normal rules of duration, prevents instantaneous effects from happening, prevents new ongoing effects from taking place, and negates ongoing or continuous effects."
  Determination creates an ongoing effect that negates the Iron Tetsubo's continuous negation effect. Alex Jones, "Moshi Taya, Iron Tetsubo, and Determination", 20 Jun 2008
• Q: If someone uses Determination for a kill action, for example a Ranged Attack, if they only have the one Personality and they are forced to destroy it (due to True Strength), since it all happened before the Announcement of the action, would the Player that played Determination still be able to use the Action(?)
  A: First, whether Determination takes effect or not has no bearing on whether the action it was supposed to affect is legal. That is, if Determination is somehow prevented, it does not somehow prevent the action it was reacting to.
  Second, destroying a Personality with True Strength does nothing to Determination's effects. All Determination requires is that the Personality be targeted, which happened.
  In this case, the lack of any Personalities after True Strength resolves may cause problems for the planned action following Determination (e.g., that action required targeting a Personality), but that has nothing to do with the success or failure of Determination, which in turn does not somehow wipe out the intended action.
  I'm not 100% sure of the question asked here, so I hope that got it. Zen Faulkes, "Determination vs. True Strength", 18 Jun 2008
• Q: Okay the long Version:
  I play The Last One sacrifice all my guys except one, and use the following ability;
  Open: Target your Personality: Destroy all of your other personalities. If this destroyed at least four personalities, your target permanently gains +4 Force, and until the end of the game, other player's actions cannot bow, dishonor, move, or destroy him.
  Now, say I Determination it three times. (reacting to each determination with the previous until the last targets The Last One.)
  Would this mean it is impossible to for someone to determination through the negation effects on the card?
  A: Whoever plays the most Determinations "wins", and equal amounts just ending up cancelling each other out (Citation). Thus, if you have played 3 on The Last One, there's no way in SE to "trump" that with more and stop The Last One's negation effects. Brook Cunningham, "The Last One + Determination", 7 Jun 2008
• Q: How long does Determination affect a permanent effect, such as The Last One?
  A: Determination has no stated duration for its own effects, therefore they only last until the end of the turn by default. Brook Cunningham, "The Last One + Determination", 7 Jun 2008
• Q: If I use Determination when I announce The Last One does this have a lasting effect. In other words does it keep the effects caused by The Last One from being negated.
  A: Yes, but only during the turn that you played Determination. Because Determination has no stated duration, it has the default duration of lasting until the end of the turn (even though the effects of the action you played it with may last longer). Brook Cunningham, "Determination and The Last One", 24 May 2008
• Q: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68148
  So you are telling me that the removal from the game is an effect of Determination and not the action that actually destroyed the personality?
  Because I would think that "after the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game." is an additional effect of the action applied by Determination, which specifically says "the action can not have its effects negated."
  A: It's an effect of Determination.
  If Determination said, "After the action destroys any Personality, the action then removes him from the game," then you would be correct: Determination would be adding an effect to the triggering action. However, it doesn't say that: Determination itself removes the Personality from the game - and that effect can be negated normally. Alex Jones, "Hall of Ancestors and Determination", 16 May 2008
• Q: If a Lion Clan personality is destroyed via an action modified by Determination, are they removed from the game or do they remain because of Hall of Ancestors trait?
  I searched but could not find an answer from Samurai Edition.
  Thanks,
  -Steve
  A: The personality is not removed from the game.
  Determination attempts to remove the dead Lion Clan Personality from the game, but The Hall of Ancestors negates the removal. You'd need a second Determination to negate that negation; the first Determination only negates negation of the effects of the action to which it's reacting.
  Alex
  [Corrected after comments on IRC] Alex Jones, "Hall of Ancestors and Determination", 15 May 2008
• Q: (Can Stone Breaker) be challanged with determination(?)
  A: It can.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot: "When found in card text, and when referring to a type of cost or effect (e.g., bowing, Force bonuses), 'cannot' (or 'can not') means that a certain type of effect or cost is negated whenever it occurs."
  Exceptions are important, so let's check those:
  "EXCEPTION: In card text, when referring to entering play, targeting, attaching, using a trait, or taking an action, 'cannot' is a restriction on the legality of that thing in the first place, not negation of its effects." Challenging is neither entering play, targeting, attaching, using a trait, or taking an action, so none of those exceptions apply. Zen Faulkes, "Stone breaker + Determination", 11 May 2008
• Q: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67920
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61715&p=789676
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67829&p=873928&hilit=Hida+Sozen#p873928
  using these as references... An action ends after its last effect is applied, if that effect is not a delayed effect. If an action's last effect is delayed, then the action ends instead after that effect is activated. However, An action resolves even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur. Effects of an action are independent. If any effect is negated, does not happen, or fails to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he was already in), the other effects still happen, and the action is still legal EXCEPTION: Some effects may be delayed (see Delayed effects) and are applied at a later time in the game than they resolve.
  A delayed effect is activated at one time, but is actually applied at another. Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time. A delayed effect that has been activated, but not yet applied, can still be negated by something that negates effects in general, such as "all effects from other players' cards." However, something that negates a specific type of effect, such as bowing, will only negate a delayed effect when it is actually applied.
  Player A plays Determination and Announces Hired Killer, the Action Resolves and Hida Sozen is about to be Destroyed (and thus, removed from the game via Determination) but Player B delays the Death with Razor of the Dawn.
  from my understanding of the rules the Result is... Determination activates and Resolves "even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur." Hired Killer Activates and Resolves, with its effect applied at a Future Time. At the end of the turn, the destruction effect is applied but negated by Hida Sozens ability.
  since Determination does not have an Ongoing effect (no While, Permanent or Until trigger) or an Continuous effects (due to the trigger "After") it no longer interferes with Sozen's ability to negate the death.
  A: Determination applies to all its action's effects: immediate, delayed and ongoing.
  At the end of the turn, Hida Sozen dies and is removed from the game. Alex Jones, "determination vs Hida Sozen + delay destruction", 8 May 2008
• Q: Regarding this post:
  Considering that the ruling regarding Determination vs Misdirection followup was done to stop misdirection from tampering with a "Determination" -ed action, how is the same not being applied to Mirumoto Kei's action?
  I'd even say that her phrase would explicitly stop Misdirection since she says while the action is "being targeted" since it is explicitly referring to the active tense. If you're picking an apple, that would include looking at the apple, reaching for the apple, plucking the apple, and bringing it to whatever container you intend to place it in. Not just the moment you pluck it. Otherwise such a phrasing has no meaning in this game since all reactions (or at least any that I can think of) happen either before or after an event.
  A: The wording and timing of Mirumoto Kei (Experienced) and Determination are different. Determination is played in advance of an action; Kei's effect is "while," and so cannot touch anything "before." Zen Faulkes, "Mirumoto Kei XP and Misdirection", 8 May 2008
• Q: Say determination is used in conjunction with a card to kill Sozen, and courage in death or razor of the dawn is used to delay his destruction. Do the effects of Determination still apply when the delay effect is finished?
  A: Yes. Nothing has changed about the effect except when it's applied. He dies. Zen Faulkes, "determination vs Hida Sozen + delay destruction", 7 May 2008
• Q: If Sozen is challenged to a duel via an action, which had Determination played on it (with it?), does his trait negate the death if he loses the duel, or does Determination allow the action created duel to kill him?
  A: The latter.
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67117 viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61715
  Nothing special about duels in that regard. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Sozen, Determination, and duels from action cards", 5 May 2008
• Q: Can Determination change any of this?
  A: Yes. Ide Towako and Swift Counterattack both "Negate the action's effects." Determination negates this negation. Alex Jones, "Superior Strategist/Determination vs. Ide Towako", 1 May 2008
• Q: Is there a time during the resolution of Superior Strategist that I could react with a Determination?
  A: No. Determination is played "Before you announce an action." The effects of Superior Strategist are the card search and the granting of an additional action, neither of which is affected by Ide Towako or Swift Counterattack. The additional action is announced, targeted, paid for and resolved after the end of Superior Strategist's resolution: to prevent the negation of the additional action's effects you need to play Determination (immediately) before you announce the additional action. Alex Jones, "Superior Strategist/Determination vs. Ide Towako", 1 May 2008
• Q: Does Determination's protection from negation, and additional effects, extend to an additional action taken from the Determination'd action (i.e.: a kill effect played off of a Determination'd Superior Strategist)?
  A: No - but, as described above, you can get result you want by playing Determination as a reaction to announcing the additional action. Alex Jones, "Superior Strategist/Determination vs. Ide Towako", 1 May 2008
• Q: The phrase "can only" only seems to appear within the Cannot entry. Since "Assigning" is not listed as an exception under section 1 of Cannot, and the "can only" restriction on Retribution is found in card text and not in game rules text, does this mean that a Determination reacted Redeployment will allow the Retributing player to assign more than one personality during a Retribution attack? (Inspired by the Shono preview, hooray wall of text, boo to not being able to use quote tags in op)
  Retribution Reaction : After the end of an Attack Phase in which you were the Defender: Declare an additional Attack Phase against that phase's Attacker, in which neither player can invite allies and you can only assign one unit. Give the Personality and each Follower in that unit +1F after it assigns.
  Redeployment Reaction : After Cavalry Maneuvers, target one of your unbowed Scouts: Target a number of your unbowed Personalities less than or equal to your Scout's Chi. Assign them to a battelfield where there is an enemy army.
  Determination Dark Virtue Reaction : Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot 1. When found in card text, and when referring to a type of cost or effect (e.g., bowing, Force bonuses), “cannot” (or "can not") means that a certain type of effect or cost is negated whenever it occurs. See also Negation. .. EXCEPTION: In card text, when referring to entering play, targeting, attaching, using a trait, or taking an action, "cannot" and "can only" are restrictions on the legality of that thing in the first place, not negation of its effects. [Targeting added, 21 November 2007] .. 2. When found in game rules text, the phrases “cannot” or “can only” apply to the legality of doing something in the first place; they do not imply that doing that thing is merely negated.
  A: "Can only" has been moved to the "Can" entry. With the new wording it should be clear that Retribution does not negate the assignment of additional units; Determination will have no effect on actions that assign additional units. Alex Jones, "Retribution + Determination Redeployment", 27 Apr 2008
• Q: If I play Deady Gound with Determination, may my opponent use the Ninja's Stronghold without Determination?
  A: Yes. The Dark Path of Shadow doesn't negate anything; it allows things. Zen Faulkes, "Deadly Ground + Determination + Dark Path of Shadow", 17 Apr 2008
• Q: I've used the search engine and I'm actually surprised that this hasn't come up yet...
  I am attacking with a three force tactician Samurai without any followers in the unit. My opponent plays Three Stone River. I play Determination and then use the tactical ability to discard a card to raise my personalities force by the focus value, lets say four. Assuming we both pass after this, will my samurai's force be 1, 5 or 7 at battle resolution?
  Thank you
  A: Your Samurai's Force would be 1.
  The effect of Three-Stone River is to set your Personality's Force to a value (1, in your example) by giving it a penalty.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#General_rules_about_stats: (Emphasis mine) "Bonuses and penalties are commonly referred to by a mathematical expression such as +1F or -1 Personal Honor. The terms “gain,” “increase” and “give” for bonuses, and “lose,” “reduce” or “suffer” for penalties, are also used..." (and also pertinent is) "...To set a stat to a value, give an appropriate bonus or penalty."
  Determination stops negation of the Tactical Force bonus, but receiving a penalty is not synonymous with negating a bonus. Indeed, the bonus is actually still there, but math is working against it, as seen here (from further down in the above linked section of the CR):
  "To get a stat's current value at any given time, do steps A through C, below:
  A: Apply all current bonuses and penalties. B: If the total is below 0, treat it as 0. (Does not apply to Family Honor, Honor Requirements, and stats with a + or – sign such as an Item’s Force and Chi stats.) C: If the total is less than a minimum or more than a maximum, treat it as the minimum or maximum." Brook Cunningham, "Determination vs Three Stone River", 16 Apr 2008
• Q: 1. If you Determination/Ambush a Personality, and the personality is destroyed as a result, is he removed from play? 2. Can you Will or Death After Life a Personality into an Ambush if you are the attacker? 3. Can Detmermination/Misdirection be used to redirect Determination/Ambush?
  Ambush: Limited: Target one of your unbowed Personalities: Create a battlefield (not at any province). Assign your Personality to attack there. Assign another player’s target Personality to defend there, even if bowed. No other units may move there. Fight a battle there. After it ends, lose 5 Honor.
  Determination: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  Will: Dark Virtue Battle: If there are any enemy units at the current battlefield, target a dead Samurai Personality you own: Bring him into play there, paying 2 less Gold and ignoring Honor Requirements.
  Death After Life: Reaction: After one of your Personalities is destroyed during battle: Lose 5 Honor. Target a dead Personality in your discard pile, or in any discard pile if you are a Spider Clan player. Permanently give him Shadowlands and Undead. Bring him into play in your current army, ignoring restrictions (paying all costs).
  Misdirection: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action’s effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead.
  A: 1. If you Determination/Ambush a Personality, and the personality is destroyed as a result, is he removed from play? No. Cards destroyed by battle Resolution are destroyed by a rulebook effect, not by Ambush.
  2. Can you Will or Death After Life a Personality into an Ambush if you are the attacker? Yes. Ambush stops movement; it doesn't stop cards being brought into play at the battlefield.
  3. Can Determination/Misdirection be used to redirect Determination/Ambush? Misdirection can only be played "during a battle", ie during the Combat & Resolution segments. You cannot change the targeting of Ambush with Misdirection, with or without Determination. Alex Jones, "Ambush, Determination, Will and Death After Life", 11 Apr 2008
• Q: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  Reaction: After a battle resolution or another player's trait or action resolves, if its effects destroyed one of your Personalities at Adeiko's location (including Adeiko): Give a target Personality a -3F/-1C token, and an additional -1C token if he is dishonorable.
  A: Adeiko's Reaction can not be taken until after the action in question resolves. By the time that opportunity to take a Reaction comes up, Adeiko has been Removed From the Game due to Determination's effect, and you can not use the ability on her card due to her being Removed From the Game. Martin Lund, "Kill Adeiko + Determination", 9 Apr 2008
• Q: Re: this question.
  Why would Determination matter? In my understanding Soldier's Fate gives the Force bonus but the Personality is still a legal target of Brute Force (as 8>3+3). Therefore Soldier's Fate doesn't try to negate anything but when the effect of Brute Force checks to see if 8 is more than the double of 3 it will suddenly check 8 against 6 and will not even attempt to destroy the Personality. Playing Determination won't change a thing. I hope you can understand my reasoning.
  A: To clarify, Determination doesn't matter here at all. There is no destruction effect to Negate in the first place.
  By the time you get to "Destroy the enemy Personality if your Personality has more than twice his Force." your Personality does not have more than twice his Force, so the effect is never introduced. Martin Lund, "determination + brute force and soldier's fate", 1 Apr 2008
• Q: I kill another player's personality with a Hired Killer, reacting with a copy of Determination to its anouncement. The other player also has a copy of Shosuro Adeiko in play. According the pre-errata text of her reaction, can she react to it after the Hired Killer is resolved?
  A: Yes. The Personality hits the discard pile. Further, whether or not its in the game does not change that a card was, in fact, destroyed. Zen Faulkes, "Determination vs. old Adeiko", 24 Mar 2008
• Q: (W)ould the "An attacking unit that participated a battle resolution cannot move to another battle this attack phase" be negated with Determination?
  A: No.
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59651 Zen Faulkes, "Negating Battle Resolution effects", 12 Mar 2008
• Q: I play Hired Killer targeting an opponent's Champion. I react to the Hired Killer with a Determination, and react to the Determination with a Determination. My opponent reacts with Seat of Power(.)
  A: The first player is getting in all the Determinations before the second. I agree that there is a little vagueness in "play Hired Killer", which, as I previously said, I took to be an informal description of the process. Zen Faulkes, "Multiple Determinations", 11 Mar 2008
• Q: Regarding this : viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66277
  Well, the play described in the OP post is not correct, as you play determination BEFORE you announce an action (card text) so the sequence of play should be :
  Player A : Determination, Announce Determination and play it (This Determination can now can't have it's effect negated or it's target changed), Announce Hired Killer (this Hired Killer can't have it's effect negated nor it's targeting changed, then the personality it kills will be removed from the Game). Player B : Determination, Announce Seat of Power (can't have it's effect negated, not it's targeting changed). This effect bypass the last determination of player A, and effectiveley Player B can change the target of Hired Killer.
  Is this reasoning incorrect, and why?
  A: I interpreted "I play Hired Killer and react with Determination" as an informal description of the process.
  I believe the summary above describes the first question, but not the second, which added another Determination to the mix. Zen Faulkes, "Multiple Determinations", 10 Mar 2008
• Q: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66277
  I play Hired Killer targeting an opponent's Champion. I react to the Hired Killer with a Determination, and react to the Determination with a Determination. My opponent reacts with Seat of Power, reacting with Determination. Is the Hired Killer redirected? If my opponent reacted to his Determination with another Determination, would it be redirected?
  Thanks!
  A: He who plays the most Determinations wins (effects are not negated).
  If both players have equal numbers of Determination, last one played wins (effects are not negated). Zen Faulkes, "Multiple Determinations", 10 Mar 2008
• Q: I have an unbowed personality with 8 Force. I play Determination and Brute Force in order to bow and kill an opposing personality with 3 Force and 3 Personal Honor. What happen if my opponement reacts with soldier's fate?
  A: The force bonus from A Soldier's Fate occurs (does not change targeting or negate anything), but destruction is not negated due to Determination. Zen Faulkes, "determination + brute force and soldier's fate", 8 Mar 2008
• Q: Regarding this : viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66145
  I always read that Determination can go around trait such as Sozen XP and XP2 "cannot die" and it was ruled here
  So, did something change?
  A: Determination says, "Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game."
  Restrictions of Actions do not Negate Effects or Change Targets, so Determination certainly doesn't let you play an Action ignoring its own card's Restrictions such as "You can play only one Desperate Wager per turn."
  That's not an Effect that causes Negation - it's a Restriction the constrains the legality of playing the card itself. Martin Lund, "Determination + Desperate Wager", 4 Mar 2008
• Q: quote="Zen" No.
  "You can play only one Desperate Wager per turn" is not preceded by Limited, Open, Battle, or Reaction. Thus, it is not the effect of an action and is not touched by Determination. [/quote]
  Either this answer opens up a whole new can of worms (saying that Determination only prevents negation from actions) or the original question was misunderstood.
  Clarification Questions:
  A) Does Determination only stop negation from actions? (When there's nothing on the card saying anything about the negation having to come from an action) B) Is "You can play only one Desperate Wager per turn" a negation effect?
  A: "You can play only one Desperate Wager per turn." has nothing to do with Negating Effects or Targeting, so Determination doesn't impact it in the slightest.
  Determination does not circumvent play restrictions of the Action you are attempting to use it on. Martin Lund, "Determination + Desperate Wager", 4 Mar 2008
• Q: Can I play one Desperate Wager, and then bypass the Desperate Wager's restriction of One-per-Turn by playing Determination and following up with the second Desperate Wager?
  A: No.
  "You can play only one Desperate Wager per turn" is not preceded by Limited, Open, Battle, or Reaction. Thus, it is not the effect of an action and is not touched by Determination. Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Desperate Wager", 4 Mar 2008
• Q: Can I use Determination to gain control of a Loyal personality without my faction alignment?
  A: No.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot: "When found in game rules text, the phrases 'cannot' or 'can only' apply to the legality of doing something in the first place; they do not imply that doing that thing is merely negated." Zen Faulkes, "Determination, Loyal", 19 Feb 2008
• Q: What happens if i play Determination before playing Encircled Terrain? Does this mean that even if he played Courage, they would all go home?
  A: That is what it means. Courage negates movement. Determination forbids negation. Zen Faulkes, "Determination & Delayed terrains vs negations", 14 Feb 2008
• Q: (D)oes Determination carry through anti-negation for all Terrains with delayed effects?
  A: Delayed effects are still effects. Determination prevents negation of effects. Zen Faulkes, "Determination & Delayed terrains vs negations", 14 Feb 2008
• Q: Can I (use Determination with) Doomed Intentions to bring a unit into the Ambush battle(?)
  A: Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Determination and Ambush", 12 Feb 2008
• Q: Watch Commander: How does this not change target?
  A: The text on Watch Commander doesn't say anything about targeting. So it doesn't affect targeting. It specifies an alternate chain of effects that occur after targeting. Zen Faulkes, "Watch Commander vs Determination follow up", 8 Feb 2008
• Q: How is it different from any other redirection?
  A: Redirection doesn't exist in Samurai Edition. Zen Faulkes, "Watch Commander vs Determination follow up", 8 Feb 2008
• Q: I am wondering if it would make a difference if I were to play Determination as a reaction before playing another Determination, which I would then follow up with my Battle action.
  A: Yes, it would matter:
  Determination + Action trumps Negation Action Determination + Negation Action trumps Determination + Action Determination + Determination + Action trumps Determination + Negation Action
  Whichever side has more Determination wins. If both sides have the same amount, then it is basically like no copies of Determination were played.
  Of course, if you play Determination -> Determination -> Action your opponent isn't going to waste his Determination or Negation action unless he's got 2x Determination and wants to use them both. Martin Lund, "Determined to play Determination", 7 Feb 2008
• Q: A personality has an "Arrival of the Obsidian Champion" played on it, reacted to with a "Determination".
  During the same turn, the a player plays the second action of "Justly earned Victory" on the personality, and reactions with a Determination to it.
  Will the Force Bonus be negated?
  A: The Justly Earned Victory will negate the Force Bonus - just like any other case of Active Effect w/ Determination meets Negating Effect w/ Determination. Martin Lund, "Determination vs. Determination", 4 Feb 2008
• Q: Has this changed?
  A: Could you be more specific as to why you think it might have? A little context would help. Zen Faulkes, "The Hall of Ancestors and Determination", 29 Jan 2008
• Q: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=60609&hilit=Courage+in+Death
  As a corollary to this ruling, is the delayed destruction caused by the original card effect or by Courage in Death?
  Additionally, if the delayed destruction is somehow negated, is the personality removed from the game?
  Thanks,
  -Steve
  A: If I have Card A - which has an effect of "destroy target Personality," and I delayed that effect with Card B that says, "He is not destroyed until the end of the turn," it is still Card A doing the destroying.
  Additionally, if somehow you managed to cause the destruction action modified by Determination to fail to destroy the Personality (maybe with a destruction Negating card + your own Determination), then Determination could not remove the Personality from the game - thanks to it's own card text.
  "After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game."
  If the Personality isn't destroyed by the action, you can't have an "after the action destroys any Personality," trigger - thus you don't get a remove from the game effect. Martin Lund, "Courage in Death + Determination followup", 15 Jan 2008
• Q: (I)s it legal to play Determination before Reaction?
  A: In other words: Are Reactions, in fact, actions? They are, so yes, it is.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Abilities Zen Faulkes, "Determination before Reaction", 14 Dec 2007
• Q: Following situation: Player A plays Sneak attack (or declares a Naval invasion). He reacts with Determination to his first action taken this battle. Can player B play Reinforce the Gates to negate the actions effects?
  A: You could play Reinforce the Gates, but it would not Negate any of the effects of the Action benefiting from Determination, since Determination says, "The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed." Martin Lund, "Determination vs Reinforce the Gates", 19 Nov 2007
• Q: My one Samurai personality, let's say Utaku Koana, is defending alone and unbowed at a battlefield where she is opposing Moto Chagatai Experienced 4. I want to send him back home with Courtesy but I know his trait prevents my actions from moving him so, before announcing Courtesy, I play Determination in order to prevent Courtesy's targeting from being changed and its effects from being negated by Chagatai's trait. Unfortunately my opponent reacts to my Determination by playing True Strength's Reaction, thus destroying my lonely Samurai, leaving me with no Personality. How shall we deal with this situation please ?
  1) Determination is played before announcing Courtesy and Courtesy is no longer legal so I must choose another action to announce, which will be affected by Determination, if any one is legal (e.g. Refugees), or pass ; my opponent can call a judge to check I could legally play Determination before its True Strength and, if I pass, to check I can play no other legal action, but I am not compelled to tell him which action I was about to take.
  2) Determination is played before announcing Courtesy and Courtesy is no longer legal so I can choose another action to announce or pass, and I can pass even if I could take another legal action.
  3) I can't play Determination if I don't show which action I am about to take, so I still play Courtesy but I fail to find its first target so Courtesy doesn't resolve.
  4) I can't play Determination if I don't show which action I am about to take, so I still play Courtesy but I check the Good Faith Rule after announcing it (so after Determination has resolved), the Good Faith Rule says it is a play mistake to take an action if a mandatory target can't be chosen so the Courtesy card is revealed but it returns to my hand and I can take another action or pass.
  5) Something else happen. Please explain.
  Thanks a lot.
  A: Good question.
  I'm going to have to pass this up to the whole team, Roger included, as this requires an addition to the rules to cover the hedge case.
  In the mean-time, the best suggestion I have for getting through this situation if it comes up in a game between now and then is this:
  Once you play and resolve a "Before announcing," trigger, you've got to try to announce something to validate that trigger (even if it isn't what you originally intended to announce). If you've got no means to do so because of a Reaction or Trigger that made the originally intended play illegal, then and only then can you pass without taking the required Action. In a casual game you're on the honor system. In a tournament game, call over a judge and explain what took place and show him your board / hand so he can verify that you've got no legal play.
  The real priorities here are to avoid creating a retroactively illegal play and move play along as cleanly as possible without creating an exploit.
  Like I mentioned, the Rules Team will see exactly what rule needs to go into the Comprehensive Rules - but in the meantime this Ruling should see you through. Martin Lund, "Determination is no True Strength", 19 Nov 2007
• Q: Parley Political Battle: Target one of your unbowed Personalities: Target an enemy Personality. Give each target a Force and Chi penalty equal to his own Personal Honor; this cannot reduce Chi below 1.
  Determination: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  In a battle there´s a personality opposed with more PH than Chi. (Is not really important in what army) I play Determination and Parley. The personality dies since Determination overrides "cannot" clause in Parley (the efect of the reduction cannot be negated) or just have its Chi reduced to 1 since Determination makes that the "cannot" clause cannot be negated (because it´s an effect of the action)
  Thanks
  A: Determination won't help you get around a card's own self-negation clauses.
  While it prevents the first effect from being Negated, it also prevents the Negation Effect from being Negated. The result is a wash.
  Much like taking:
  "I have some money," and turning it into, "I haven't got no money," conveys the same exact meaning, but makes you sound like an idiot. Martin Lund, "Parley and Determination", 13 Nov 2007
• Q: Simple question - when a Samurai or Courtier is targeted by Assigning Blame, and the player chooses to have the Personality commit Seppuku, can Determination be used to actually reduce the Honor loss to 1? (Assigning Blame says the loss cannot be reduced, Determination says the effect of the Seppuku cannot be negated, so my guess is that the answer is yes)
  A: Determination would cause the reduction effect of Seppuku to overright the "can not be reduced" effect of Share the Blame. Martin Lund, "Determination, Seppuku, and Assigning Blame", 9 Nov 2007
• Q: Say a Personality has an effect on it that gives it a positive minimum Chi (either a Clan armor, or a Crab with Hida Kuon XP5 in the same location - possibly Kuon himself).
  If I give the Personality with an action (say, Kyuden Wasuremono's ability) that would be enough to bring him to 0C if it were not for the minimum Chi, and use Determination when I announce the action, does the Personality die for having 0 Chi?
  A: Minimum and Maximums do not Negate anything. They cause you to treat a stat as a value it would otherwise not be calculated to. Determination has no effect on them. Martin Lund, "Determination and Chi death vs minimum Chi", 2 Nov 2007
• Q: Hi !
  My opponent plays Determination and First and Final Strike to duel a Unicorn Clan personnality. During the duel, I focus a Crosswind's Cut Style.
  What happens ?
  I mean, does Determination negates the negating from Crosswind's Cut Style ? The real question would be, does Determination also negates what happens during the duel and/or focus effects ?
  Thank you for your time.
  A: Determination will prevent the "Destroy the loser" effect from being negated by Crosswinds Cut Style. Chris Fuchs, "Crosswind's Cut Style and Determination", 26 Oct 2007
• Q: Determination reads:
  Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  Shosuro Adeiko reads:
  Reaction: After the effects resolve of a battle resolution, action, or trait that destroyed Adeiko or one of your other Personalities: Give a target Personality a -3F/-1C token, and an additional -1C token if he is dishonorable.
  If I destroy Adeiko with an action that was anounced after Determination, can she react, or is she already removed from the game at the point she would be able to?
  Thanks!
  (You surely are already hating how that girly turned out, aren't you?)
  A: She's been removed from the game before her Reaction can be played. You can't use anything on her card unless there is text that says you can use it even while she is not in the game. (I sincerely hope to never see such card text.) Martin Lund, "Determination vs Shosuro Adeiko", 18 Oct 2007
• Q: If I played The Khan's Gambit, can I use an ability on one of my personalities if I react with Determination?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot: "In card text, when referring to entering play, attaching, using a trait, or taking an action, 'cannot' and 'can only' are restrictions on the legality of that thing in the first place, not negation of its effects." No. Zen Faulkes, "The Khan's Gambit and Determination", 15 Oct 2007
• Q: Zen's answer in this thread surprises me...
  Determination: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  Misdirection: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action’s effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead.
  Misdirection seems clear about being played before targeting takes place, so that targets are not changed, it's just that who chooses them changes. And Determination (at least the MRP) says nothing about changing who makes the choice.
  Does the ruling stand?
  A: Rules Junta looked at this and agreed with me that "targeting can not be changed" is interpreted broadly. That is, no changes to the how the targeting is done, what can and can't be targeted, or what has been targeted after the fact. Zen Faulkes, "Determination vs Misdirection followup", 24 Sep 2007
• Q: If I play Determination on one of my actions, can my opponent react with Misdirection?
  A: No. Zen Faulkes, "Determination vs Misdirection", 24 Sep 2007
• Q: (C)an I destroy Sozen exp with, say, Hired Killer, assuming that I also played Determination?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot
  Hida Sozen (Experienced) negates. Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Sozen exp and Determination", 15 Sep 2007
• Q: Will a Determination played on a Fury of the Dark Lord remove the personalities in the Hall of Ancestors' discard pile from the game?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot
  Hall of Ancestors negates. Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Determination + Fury of the Dark Lord vs Hall of Ancestors", 15 Sep 2007
• Q: Just confirming I understand this and, more broadly, that I'm applying negation of effects correctly.
  Blade of Guile
  This Personality has 0 Personal Honor, and can neither gain Personal Honor bonuses nor be dishonored.
  Determination
  Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  From the Comprehensive Rules:
  Conflicting effects
  When effects conflict in their application but not their timing, the later effect takes precedence over the previous effect. Example: If an effect can not be negated (negating anything that attempts to negate it), and is countered by a later negation effect that itself can not be negated, the later effect succeeds in negating the previous effect. [ADDED July 30 2007] [/i]
  If I play Determination on an action that states "Dishonor a target personality", then play that action on someone with the Blade of Guile attached, per the "Conflicting Effects" entry, they will still be dishonored, correct?
  And a more specific case...if I play Determination, then use Bayushi Saya's action on a target personality who has Blade of Guile attached, and that personality subsequently performs an action, will the effect of Determination remain applied, so the personality would be dishonored by the effect of Saya's action?
  Bayushi Saya
  Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.
  [Mod edit: Formatting removed. -ZF]
  A: Determination will allow the effect to trump the "can not be dishonored" trait.
  "Do X. This can not be Negated," trumps, "Negate X," or "Can not X" instructions. Martin Lund, "Determination and Blade of Guile", 12 Sep 2007
• Q: I play Determination, and then announce that I am taking Bayushi Saya's Open action. For abilities and actions such as Bayushi Saya's, where targeting is performed in the effects portion of the card, would the application of Determination allow the targeting of Bayushi Tsimaru XP, since the action's effects can not be negated?
  A: No. http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Definition_of_effects: "Restrictions, targeting, and costs are not effects." (EMphasis added.) Zen Faulkes, "Determination, Bayushi Tsimaru XP, Targeting/Effects", 10 Sep 2007
• Q: Hi !
  1st question:
  If I play a card that targets a number of targets up to a certain value (like Shuten Doji's Fury) and my opponent plays Misdirection on it, can he target 0 card (or a different number than me) ?
  In lotus, the answer was 'no' but with Misdirection's new wording...
  A: Well, you never get to choose a number in the first place. Misdirection's wording now has it kick in "before" you get to do any targeting.
  He has to choose at least the minimum number of targets a card specifies, since the minimum number is considered to be the "mandatory" targeting.
  Shuten Doji's Fury has a most recent printing of: "Bow one or more target cards ..."
  So he's have to pick at least one, but he can pick just one, even if you intended to pick more. Martin Lund, "Misdirection and "up to"/ Determination vs Determination", 30 Jul 2007
• Q: 2nd question:
  I wanted to come on the Determination vs Determination subject.
  If I target Hida Kuon with Hired Killer and target one of my samurai to play Determination on the Hired Killer, can my opponent play Determination on Seat of Power's reaction to be able to redirect the Hired Killer even if Determination has been played on it ? Which Determination would beat the other ?
  A: I would be inclined to say the last one to be played would "trump" the other, but I'll forward it up to the entire Rules Team proper to give you the official word on that. Martin Lund, "Misdirection and "up to"/ Determination vs Determination", 30 Jul 2007
• Q: Can my opponent play Duty to negate the destruction(?)
  A: It's a Reaction to an effect. No. Zen Faulkes, "Determination versus Determination", 17 Jul 2007
• Q: SE (samurai):
  [Determination] doesn't stop "reducing range attacks"? Does that count as "negating the original range attack effect" ||(RA3 IS RA3 DAMMIT!)|| or "reduce /=/ negate"?
  (I.e.= [Outer walls] can still be played; [few against many] CANNOT be played, for example)
  A: Reducing strength is not negation. Brook Cunningham, "Sun and Moon #rules-questions", 26 May 2026
• Q: does Determination count as giving a card Unstoppable?
  Would a card that prevents cards from having Unstoppable stop Determination from working?
  MRP text on Oracle doesn't explicitly make it Unstoppable, but that seems to be the effect of the card.
  A: 1. No 2. No. Brook Cunningham, "Sun and Moon #rules-questions", 11 May 2024