Heated Discussion

Legend of the Five Rings card from Stronger Than Steel

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Keywords

Political

Card Text

Limited: Target another player's Personality: Create a battlefield and assign him to defend there. Assign any number of your Courtier or Magistrate Personalities to attack there. The Defender may then assign any of his Courtier or Magistrate Personalities there. Fight a battle there. During the battle, before any Personality is destroyed, dishonor him instead.

Focus Value

2

Legality

Race for the Throne (Samurai)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rules Q&A

• Q: Civil Discussion Open: Target your unbowed Courtier: After each time a player assigns he loses 1 honor for each unit he assigned, or 3 whichever is lower.
  Heated Discussion Political Limited: Target another player's Personality. Create a battlefield and assign him to defend there. Assign any number of your Courtier or Magistrate Personalities to attack there. The Defender may then assign any of his Courtier or Magistrate Personalities there. Fight the battle. During the battle, before any Personality is destroyed, dishonor him instead.
  If I play Civil Discussion and Ambush/Heated Discussion, do I lose the honor for the first two personalities as I'm the one who assigned them? Or do both played lose the honor for their own personalities?
  A: For the intial assignment, the person who played Heated Discussion would lose the honor via Civil Discussion's text. If the Defender decided to assign additional Courtiers/Magistrates to the battle, he would lose honor for each one he assigned, up to 3. Dan Jacobson, "Civil Discussion and Ambush/Heated Discussion", 7 May 2009
• Q: Let's assume that I play Desperate Gambit dishonoring one of my samurai-courtier personalities and target with it my one of my opponent's personalities. If I then play heated discussion and assign them both what exactly happens?
  1. They both die before the battle begins? or 2. They are both about to die, but they get dishonored instead due to Heated Discussion's effect?
  A: Number 1 is what occurs. Brook Cunningham, "Desperate Gambit and Heated Discussion", 14 Jul 2008
• Q: In other words, is assignment considered happening during the battle, or is it just a step before the battle begins?
  A: In a regular attack, the Maneuvers phases (during which units assign) occur before any battles begin. After that, the Attacke chooses a battlefield and begins the battle:
  http://rules.l5r.com/Battles#Choose_Battlefield: "The Attacker chooses a battlefield whose battle has not yet ended, and the attacking and defending sides there engage. Engaging is the time point at which the battle, and the Combat Segment, both begin.... “During a battle” includes both the Combat and Resolution Segments."
  In contrast, the assignments for Heated Discussion's battle occurs as effects of the action itself. But, as it is above when the Attacker chooses a battlefield, Heated Discussion's battle begins (units engage, Combat Segment starts) when its effects direct you to "Fight the battle". "During" the battle (as I quoted) includes everything after that, but not the assignment beforehand. Brook Cunningham, "Desperate Gambit and Heated Discussion", 14 Jul 2008
• Q: It seems weird to me not to have found any questions about this, but I searched and didn't find a thing.
  Heated Discussion:
  Political Limited: Target another player's Personality. Create a battlefield and assign him to defend there. Assign any number of your Courtier or Magistrate Personalities to attack there. The Defender may then assign any of his Courtier or Magistrate Personalities there. Fight the battle. During the battle, before any Personality is destroyed, dishonor him instead.
  The card does not ask to target an unbowed personality, but since Ambush does clarify it (and there was some questioning and errata regarding the UCP unique ninja) I was wondering if you could assing a bowed personality to defend using this action, or if the assigning would be negated if you targeted another player's bowed personality with this action.
  The only relevant rule I found about this is the following:
  Units led by bowed Personalities can not normally assign, either as part of the normal Attack Phase procedure, or through other effects that assign them.
  Thanks in advance.
  A: Without text creating an exception, you can not assign a bowed personality, as the rule you quoted states.
  Ambush has the required exception text: "Assign another player’s target Personality to defend there, even if bowed."
  Shosuro Nikai has been errata'd to have it, to better match the implication of the printed text: "Assign another player's target unit to defend there, even if its Personality is bowed, and straighten it."
  Heated Discussion does not have the required exception text, and has no text that only makes sense if you can assign a bowed personality. A bowed Personality is not a legal target for Heated Discussion. See Cannot:
  "2. When found in game rules text, the phrase “cannot” applies to the legality of doing something in the first place; it does not imply that doing that thing is merely negated." Alex Jones, "Heated Discussion and bowed personalities", 30 Jun 2008
• Q: I may just be stupid, but asking for clarification on this : http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68345.
  What exactly happens when I reduce a personality's chi to 0 during a heated discussion:
  A) The death is negated and the 0 chi is ignored for the rest of the battle B) The death is negated, and the chi penalty is constantly re-checking and being negated C) The death is negated than...something I'm not seeing
  Sorry if it's blatantly obvious and I'm missing something, but I can't make anythign regarding Heated Discussion and Chi death.
  A: D) None of the above.
  Actually, thanks directly to your pointing out the 0-Chi/Heated Discussion infinity problem, the rules for 0 Chi death have recently been clarified in regard to substitution effects (emphasis mine below):
  http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Specific_stats: "This destruction from zero Chi is continuously applied. Special rules apply to its negation. Ongoing and instantaneous effects that negate destruction, such as the trait "Before this card is destroyed: Negate the destruction," will not negate destruction from zero Chi (see Effects). Only a continuous negation effect (for example, "This Personality cannot be destroyed" as a trait), or an effect that specifically refers to the zero Chi rule (for example, "Until the end of the turn, he is not destroyed for having 0 Chi") can overcome the Personality's destruction.
  This rule also applies to effects that substitute some other effect, such as dishonoring, for destruction. If the substitution is continuous or refer specifically to zero Chi, the substitution is effective. In this case, the substitution happens once, and destruction from zero Chi is suspended while the conditions of substitution hold. If the substitution comes from an ongoing or instantaneous effect, then the substitution fails.
  [CLARIFIED and expanded to cover substitution, May 30 2008]"
  Now, the instantaneous effect of substituting dishonor for death fails in the specific case of death from 0 Chi. He's dead, Jim. Brook Cunningham, "Heated Discussion, Death Poem and 0 chi", 30 May 2008
• Q: REgarding the ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68332, lets say I add another card to the chain of the effect.
  I am playing Dragon Magistrates, using the new W&D person, Kitsuki Mayako (relevant text: After another player's Personality is dishonored: Gain 1 Honor. as a trait). I play Death peom during my limited phase, and start a heated discussion targeting a 2 chi beserker. I sneak in to the battle and Wounded in battle, reducing the Beserkers chi to 0. Heated discussion negates his death, dishonors him and Mayako gains me one honor. The person still has 0 chi, so therefore attempts to die again.
  A: This is not what happens.
  Heated Discussion creates an ongoing conditional effect, rather than a continuous effect. There is a substitution of dishonour for death each time a death would occur, rather than a continuous negation of the death. As clarified here, an ongoing effect is insufficient to negate destruction from 0 chi: Alex Jones, "Heated Discussion, Death Poem and 0 chi", 30 May 2008
• Q: Do these mean that the action successfully resolves before the created battle takes place?
  A: Yes. You create the battlefield and assign the Personalities during the "Action Resolves" step. That and the "Action Ends" step of taking an action are completed and Ambush is considered resolved. The normal procedure for effects and Reactions triggered by the end of an action is followed. Then you fight the battle. Alex Jones, "Timing with Ring of the Void and Ambush/Heated Discussion", 30 May 2008
• Q: Example: If I play three Non-Kiho actions from action cards, then play Ambush, do I play Ring of the Void before the battle, after the battle, or after the honor loss?
  A: Before the battle. Alex Jones, "Timing with Ring of the Void and Ambush/Heated Discussion", 30 May 2008
• Q: Similarly: If I play two Non-Kiho actions from action cards, then Ambush, and then a non-kiho action from an action card during the battle, do I play Ring of Void after the action in the battle, after the battle ends, or after the honor loss?
  A: After the action in the battle. Alex Jones, "Timing with Ring of the Void and Ambush/Heated Discussion", 30 May 2008
• Q: Either way, I would guess that Heated Discussion follows the same rules.
  A: Yes. Alex Jones, "Timing with Ring of the Void and Ambush/Heated Discussion", 30 May 2008
• Q: In regards to this ruling of before destruction http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68332
  Since the trigger for destruction still occurs, can I now play Utter defeat, negating the following ruling?
  http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=65074&p=836436&hilit=heated#p836436
  A: No, sorry.
  Zen perhaps oversimplified things in his answer that you linked, but he was essentially correct. To be more specific:
  During a Heated Discussion, destruction is replaced by dishonoring as an Indefinite Conditional Effect. These occur in Step D of Timing.
  The opportunity to play Reactions occurs in Step F, at which point the destuction trigger is already gone. Brook Cunningham, "Heated Discussion timing", 29 May 2008
• Q: I believe MacBeth is misreading the cards.
  A: Oh, he doesn't do that. Misreads portents to think they mean he should be King of Scotland, maybe -- but not cards. Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: He's saying that both cards are trying to do the same thing, but they're not - Death Poem inserts something before destruction, whereas Heated Discussion replaces the destruction with something else entirely. Personalities still die under Death Poem.
  A: I'm sorry I wasn't more specific above. The "same thing" that both cards do is create Indefinite conditional effects. I see, in my first reply, I accidentally flip-flopped Death Poem and Heated Discussion, saying that the former caused the "instead" effects when it was the latter (fixing!). Sorry if that muddled things, but the answer is still correct. Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: The question, as I understand it, is what happens when both are in effect? Does Death Poem's rehonoring occur before or after the dishonoring? Is it your choice? Does it even occur, since Heated Discussion specifies that no one will be destroyed in this battle?
  A: Once more, with feeling:
  1. Both create Indefinite conditional effects. These effects are timed to the exact same trigger ("before any Personality is destroyed... (D/d)uring (the/a) battle..."), which means...
  2. The active player chooses which is applied first. Before its destruction, he could have a Personality Rehonor (due to Death Poem) and then be dishonored instead (due to Heated Discussion), or he could have it be dishonored instead (due to HD) and then Rehonor (due to DP). Ah! Ah! Don't think you've caught me on this second example; just because the destruction is replaced with dishonoring first doesn't mean Death Poem's effect loses its trigger and doesn't happen. Please see this ruling if you don't believe me.
  3. As I told Nolian (and, ironically, as he said himself, "the rule sheet Stronger than Steel says that this is not a negation of destruction"), Heated Discussion doesn't stop destruction for the whole battle before it begins; it changes each individual destruction just before each occurs. (See #1) Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: Wouldn't Death Poem's effect never trigger during Heated Discussion? In a Heated Discussion, death has already been substituted by dishonoring instead throughout the entire battle. There is no trigger for Death Poem's effect because it already happened the moment you played it until the battle ends.
  A: Ah, well... no, no, and no (in that order).
  The problem is, you're not seeing accurately what Heated Discussion is doing. It doesn't change destruction to dishonoring once, and then have that effect last for the entire battle. What it does is change destruction each time it occurs ("During the battle, before any Personality is destroyed, dishonor him instead.").
  That's the same thing that Death Poem is doing. And, although the effect is different, it has the exact same timing trigger ("Before any Personality is destroyed during a battle...").
  Thus, the active player chooses the which effect happens first each time that trigger occurs (but, I'll mention again, both effects will happen regardless of the order chosen; see the Kyoso ruling link above). Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 23 May 2008
• Q: In my limited phase, I play Death Poem (Honorable Personalities have +1F while opposed and attacking. Before any Personality is destroyed during a battle this turn, rehonor him.) Later in my limited phase, I start a heated discussion.
  During the heated discussion battle, I attempt to destory one of my opponent's people. As the active player, Do I choose the order in which both of the before death effects resolve (Heated Discussion's death negation and Death Poems rehonoring) or does Heated Discussions effect somehow over ride Death poem?
  A: Both Death Poem's and Heated Discussion's effects have the same trigger and are the same type of effect. Thus, as the active player, you would decide the order they occur.
  Citation, from the order in which triggers are resolved: "D. Apply any delayed effects that resolved previously and are timed to the trigger (such as, “After the next time this turn he assigns…”) The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply."
  Also note, no matter which you choose to happen first, they will both occur. Even if you choose Heated Discussion to go first, and a Personality dishonors "instead" of being destroyed, that doesn't erase the fact that Death Poem's trigger happened and that its effect will take place*. (See this ruling about Kyoso no Oni Exp3 for a similar circumstance.)
  *fixed example sentence via edit. Brook Cunningham, "Death Poem and Heated Discussion", 22 May 2008
• Q: During a Heated Discussion, if you hit a Personality with a Ranged Attack that would kill them, the HD dishonors them instead. Would Kyuden Ashinagabachi then reduce the target's force as appropriate, since the Ranged Attack did not destroy its target?
  A: Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Heated Discussion and Kyuden Ashinagabachi", 7 May 2008
• Q: Sorry, regarding this http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67187
  Zen, you said "The earlier ruling was incorrect". I'd just like to clarify what you mean...do you mean the "earlier ruling" that you made in the thread was incorrect, or the "earlier ruling" that doji itchiko cited was incorrect? In other words, does the personality reduced to 0C die at once, even if the reduction occurs during an ongoing Heated Discussion, or he dies once the Heated Discussion has "finished"?
  A: The first one in this sequence. Will clarify in that post. Zen Faulkes, "heated discussion, Chi death and rehonoring", 16 Apr 2008
• Q: (Because) the dishonor effect is substituted for the destruction effect in the Seppuku action, it would seem that it is impossible to commit Seppuku as a result of an honor loss during Heated Discussion.
  A: The player reaction is legal to take, and will rehonor the personality before she is dishonored again by Heated Discussion, which may or may not be useful. The Personality won't be destroyed, though. Zen Faulkes, "Heated Discussion + Seppuku", 5 Apr 2008
• Q: After searching the rules forum and reading the comprehensive rules site on timing, I still haven't figured this out
  I have played Heated Discussion. My opponent eventually loses the battle. Can i play Utter Defeat, timed at the battle resolution segment, on one of his personalities?
  A: No. Destruction is never going to occur under Heated Discussion, so there is no trigger for Utter Defeat. http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_I-J#Instead. Zen Faulkes, "Heated Discussion and Utter Defeat timing issue", 23 Jan 2008
• Q: Winter Storm says that after an attack is declared each player has to bow two of their personalities right?
  But both, Ambush and Heated Discussion doesn't say at any moment that it declares an attack, just that creates that battlefield. My question is: When a personality uses Ambush or Heated Discussion while Winter Storm is in play do each player has to bow two of their personalities with gold cost equal stronghold gold production + 2?
  If each player has to bow two personalities what will happen on Ambush case if the personality I chose for Ambush will bow due to Winter Storm what will happen? Will he assign to the battlefield even if bowed?
  Regarding to Ambush and Heated Discussion, is it considered an attack phase? Can I use Retribution after the battle ends?
  A: Neither Heated Discussion nor Ambush mention anything about an Attack Phase or declaring an Attack. They don't create a new Phase and they don't address any Declaration or Maneuvers Segments. They provide explicit instructions about creating Battlefields and assigning Personalities instead. They only create Combat and Resolution Segments.
  Winter Storm and Retribution both completely fail to trigger off of these two cards. Martin Lund, "Winter Storm vs Ambush/Heated Discussion and Retribution", 2 Nov 2007