Hida Kuon

Legend of the Five Rings card from Celestial Edition, Celestial Edition 15th Anniversary, Promotional–Celestial

Card Type

Personality

Force

12

Chi

5

Honor Requirement

-

Gold Cost

14

Personal Honor

3

Clan

Crab

Keywords

Experienced 6, Loyal, Unique, Berserker, Clan Champion, Commander, Crab Clan, Hero, Samurai

Card Text

After the first time each battle another player's action targets Kuon: If he is the only Personality in his army, the action's (remaining) effects do not happen.
Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield, target your Personality: Move him there. If he moved, straighten him.

Legality

Destroyer War (Celestial)

Deck

Dynasty

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, "Hida Kuon 12F/5C -HR 14G 3PH Crab Clan • Clan Champion • Samurai • Berserker • Commander • Hero • Experienced 6 • Loyal • Unique If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader’s first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen. Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Move your target Personality there. If he moved, straighten him." [Celestial Edition, 29 June 2009] Comprehensive Rules, Celestial Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, February 2012, p. 136
• Kuon's trait now reads, "After the first time each battle another player's action targets Kuon: If he is the only Personality in his army, the action's (remaining) effects do not happen." [technical erratum, 12 August 2009] Comprehensive Rules, Celestial Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, February 2012, p. 136

Rules Q&A

• Q: I'm concerned about the rulings of flanked by nightmares. i have read alot including iron will and kuon trait. honestly i don't see how it makes any differance who does the targeting. i will argue my case about the Hida Kuon exp 6 trait specifically but i hope that you can reconsider the others.(i will simply refer to Hida Kuon exp 6 as kuon for the remainder of the thread.)
  Kuon text: After the first time each battle another player's action targets Kuon: If he is the only Personality in his army, the action's (remaining) effects do not happen.
  Flanked by Nightmares text: Battle: If your current army has more units than the current enemy army, bow your target Shadowlands Personality: The enemy leader targets and destroys a Personality in his current army
  I understand that because the enemy doesn't target kuon, the trait does not trigger. however, on further inspection, it doesnt seem like it should matter. Kuon's trait does not require the enemy to target. it does require an enemy action that targets kuon. just because kuon is targeted by his owner, the source of the action is still the enemy, or in other words and enemy action has indeed, after all is said and done, targeted kuon.
  the main arguement that contradicts mine is that i have is that the targeting of kuon happens in the effects part of Flanked by nightmares. however contraversly, flanked by nightmares and the requirements of kuon's trait activating are ALL fulfilled before the action finishes.
  i hope to persuade the rules junta to re-evaluate previous rulings concerning kuon and perhaps other rulings that are related.
  A: When referring to previous rulings, please provide a link to them in your post.
  However, I should inform you that if all the conditions of it are met, Kuon's trait WILL prevent the effects of Flanked by Nightmares.
  If there are rulings to the contrary, they are in error or outdated. Brook Cunningham, "flanked by nightmares", 10 Jul 2011
• Q: I attack with Hida Kuon (exp 6.)and another samurai. My opponent defends and his first action targets Kuon and the effects would kill him or the samurai. I re-direct the action to the other samurai with Chugo Seido, and the samurai dies. Is Kuon's trait now 'active' ie the effects of the next action that targets him will not happen? I think it does work this way as the re-direction from Chugo Seido happens before targeting of Kuon occurs, but I'm not 100% sure.
  Relevant Kuon text - If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen.
  Chugo Seido - Reaction: When another player's action would target one of your Personalities, destroy this card: The action instead targets one of your Samurai of your choice at the same location, if legal.
  Cheers,
  Neil.
  A: Note that Hida Kuon exp6 has been errata'd: Kuon's trait now reads, "After the first time each battle another player's action targets Kuon: If he is the only Personality in his army, the action's (remaining) effects do not happen." [technical erratum, 12 August 2009]
  Anyway, Chugo Seido reacts at the time "when an action would target", and changes that targeting; the original target is not considered to have been targeted by that action. Alex Jones, "Hida Kuon (Exp 6)and Chugo Seido", 5 May 2011
• Q: Do reactions for Engaging at the Battlefield count as taking place in battle?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Battles#B._Combat_Segment: "(T)hings that are triggered 'before engaging' do not occur in or during the battle, and things that are triggered 'after engaging' do occur in and during the battle." Zen Faulkes, "Reactions for entering battle, and Hida Kuon Exp 6", 10 Mar 2011
• Q: Kuon attacks alone, Phoenix player with City of Tears defends.
  As first action, the defender attachs Consumed by Five Fires, reacts with Heavenly Yari of the Phoenix targeting Kuon, which doesnt happen because of Kuon's trait, and then goes to take the aditional battle action to use Consumed by Five Fires to destroy Kuon.
  Is this play legal?
  A: Yes, this play is legal.
  Additional Action: "When an action or triggered trait grants an additional action, the timing of the additional action is delayed, such that the action is taken once the action or trait that granted it has ended, and the opportunity to play Reactions to the end of the action or trait has passed. This makes sure that Battle actions can not occur within other Battle actions, and so on."
  Thus, after the Equip action resolves, both the triggered trait of the Stronghold and the Reaction of the Yari are taken and resolve their effects, and then the additional action granted by the former is taken. Brook Cunningham, "Hida Kuon xp6 VS Heavenly Yari of the Phoenix", 11 Dec 2010
• Q: (I)if say i have personality "X" at the current battlefield and my opponent only has a Hida Kuon (Exp. 6) that has not yet had his trait triggered... Does (Delayed Conflict) trigger his trait? Or does it go through it?
  A: All that matters is whose action it is, and that it targets.
  Who is doing the targeting does not matter.
  It's your action (I'm assuming). It targets. Trait triggers. Zen Faulkes, "Delayed Conflict vs Kuon Exp6", 8 Dec 2010
• Q: In the case of Kuon being the only personality in an army and Unnatural Flood being the first action that targets him (coming from a Water Shugenja), would Kuon be moved home or not?
  I'm not really sure of how this case works, the spell reads "this movement will not be negated" and Kuon reads "the action's (remaining) effects do not happen", so what will trump the other and why?
  Thanks,
  Javier
  A: Effects with "do not" wording work very similar to negation, but are not considered "negation".
  http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#.E2.80.9CDoes_not.2FWill_not.22_versus_Negation: "The main difference between the two is that in the card set, negation effects are sometimes specifically prevented with wording such as "will not be negated," whereas there is no such wording to prevent "does not" effects as a specific category."
  Therefore, Kuon's trait WILL make Unnatural Flood's effects fail, even if it's performed by a Water shugenja. Brook Cunningham, "Unnatural Flood vs Hida Kuon (Experienced 6)", 28 Nov 2010
• Q: Is Kuon's (Exp. 6) trait once per turn or once per battle?
  A: "(T)he enemy leader’s first action that targeted Kuon this battle." Emphasis added.
  Traits, unlike abilities, are not limited to any particular number of uses a turn. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon Exp. 6 and Trait", 3 Jul 2010
• Q: In regards to http://alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=84151
  The question was whether the action would bow Kuon if it had originally targeted the scout armor. The scout armor is a legal target (has less force than Utogu performing the action). Utogu has the requisite base force, so the action now bows a unit without targeting the unit, it would appear.
  Obviously Kuon cannot be targeted by the action, but the attached scout armor being targeted should bow Kuon's unit, correct?
  A: Correct, but no mention of Scout armor, or any similar attachment was made in the original question.
  Hida Kuon's unit would bow, and his trait would not be triggered. Dan Jacobson, "Only Actions Speak vs Hida Kuon (exp 6)", 10 Jun 2010
• Q: If i use Only Actions Speak (the battle action) that was performed by Utogu no Oni to target an attachment on Hida Kuon (exp 6) as my first battle action where Kuon is the only defender, will Kuon be bowed by it?
  A: No.
  Assuming no other bonuses or penalties, Hida Kuon xp6 is not a legal target for Utogu no Oni via Only Actions Speak.
  He must have less force than Utogu no Oni's for Only Actions Speak to be legal to play.
  Assuming some sort of force penalty or bonus prior to the action was in effect, Hida Kuon xp6s trait would make all the effects of Only Actions Speak's Battle action fail, if Hida Kuon was the card targeted. Dan Jacobson, "Only Actions Speak vs Hida Kuon (exp 6)", 10 Jun 2010
• Q: With Koun's errata will Chuuna circumvent his text since her ability is a limited action and the bowing takes place during assignment? I was under the impresstion that since she targets during the Limited phase, he misses his window to react since his ability works during a battle.
  At least that's how I thought it would work. When it came up it in a local game was ruled against me and Kuon was allowed to remain straight.
  Maybe I'm just not understanding Kuon's ability?
  A: You do understand Kuon correctly. His trait will not save him from being bowed by Chuuna.
  His trait triggers when he is targeted during a battle, and it causes the targeting action's effects to not happen. As you said, Chuuna's targeting occurs during the Action Phase, so it would not trigger the trait. Brook Cunningham, "Moshi Chuuna vs Hida Kuon (exp 6)", 15 Feb 2010
• Q: Hey Junta, because I run into this and I can't be a***ed to bicker over it every time, does Andos action trigger Kuon's trait? Yes? No? Why?
  Kitsune Ando: Mantis Clan • Samurai • Scout Battle: If the current battlefield was targeted by a Recon action this turn: Destroy a target enemy attachment.
  Kuon's trait reads:
  After the first time each battle another player's action targets Kuon: If he is the only Personality in his army, the action's (remaining) effects do not happen.
  Thank you
  A: Simple answer: No, Kitsune Ando's action does NOT trigger Hida Kuon xp6's trait.
  Long answer: Targeting the unit also target's the personality. If the action targeted Kuon's UNIT, it would trigger Hida Kuon xp6's trait and the effects would be negated.
  Targeting just the attachments however, does not also target Hida Kuon explicitly. Dan Jacobson, "Hida Kuon and attachments", 9 Dec 2009
• Q: If I attack with Hida Kuon and the enemy player has 2 Personalities with 4 force each and I kill the 1st with Kami Unleashed, bowing Kuon. He passes on his next action. Can I use Final Duty to kill the remain personality with the ranged 6 attack since Kuon is bowed and no longer giving force to the battle.
  Thanks,
  [Mod edit: Slang removed. -ZF]
  A: Yes.
  If Kuon is the only personality at the Battlefied, and is bowed, your Army's Force is 0. Dan Jacobson, "Final Duty/Army total force?", 26 Jul 2009
• Q: Zen, regarding your response, all I'm wondering is why Kuon's trait sees actions that target him while he is not alone when the first thing his trait says is "if Kuon is alone,..." I'm thinking of this ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66804&p=858339&hilit=flanking#p858339 regarding flanking action's ability to be played, so doesn't the trait fail to see the action because you don't meet the conditions for the trait? Then, his trait cannot be announced because you don't meet the conditions? In the flanking action case, you can't legally announce flanking action because of something in the constraints block, and it seems like Kuon's trait is similar: Kuon is not alone, therefore his trait cannot trigger, but for some reason it still remembers that Kuon was targeted previously? This is very confusing to me.
  EDIT: To make my question clearer,it seems like kuon's trait shouldn't occur like "kuon gets targeted, his trait triggers, and the trait doesn't take effect," and should be more like "kuon's trait isn't active yet and doesn't look for an action that targets him period," because, as I read it, being alone is a contraint for triggering his trait.
  A: I understand the alternative reading, but there is not a wording rule for multiple conditions. We're relying on regular English here.
  Oh, English, how you taunt me so.
  So given a little ambiguity in the text, I get to wield Rules Junta power and decide that in this context, "first" means first, not "first when alone." So far, none of the other members of the Rules Junta has disagreed with me on that. If they do, they'll let me know. They're good at telling how wrong, wrong, wrongity-wrong I am. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 13 Jul 2009
• Q: would Kuon's trait be able to overcome Unexpected Intimidation?
  A: Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 13 Jul 2009
• Q: Targeting done by a player other than the controller of an action is never "Required Targeting" and so never occurs during the targeting step when mandatory targeting occurs? (i.e. an action which does not fulfil A necessarily also does not fulfil B).
  A: Yes. Because targeting can become non-mandatory for several reasons, I wanted to spell out those cases, even at the cost of a bit of redundancy. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 13 Jul 2009
• Q: follow up to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77323
  assuming i made the optional ranged attack against kuon
  when i play my next action and target kuon is this
  a) the first action targeting kuon or b) not the first action targeting kuon
  regarding his trait?
  thanks in advance
  A: Was Hand of Osano-Wo played by the enemy leader as his or her first action, and did it target Kuon?
  If so, then it was still the "enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle."
  The next action targeting Kuon cannot be the "enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle."
  That the timing of Kuon's trait did not prevent Hand of Osano-Wo's effects does not change that it met all those criteria, and the next action can't meet them. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 10 Jul 2009
• Q: Tsuruchi Sanjo Battle: Target a Personality with lower Personal Honor than Sanjo's Chi. Move him home.
  Since targeting the personality with lower Personal Honor than his Chi is not a cost, can I perform the action on someone with a 3 or higher Personal Honor (Sanjo's Chi is 3) and have it fail.
  The reason this came up was because my opponent had out Hida Kuon (Experienced 6) and I wanted to target his with Sanjo to burn his negation before I used my real action. Would this work?
  Thank you!!!
  A: The restriction that the targeted personality's Personal Honor be lower than Sanjo's Chi is a targeting restriction. Tsuruchi Sanjo cannot target personalities with Personal Honor equal to or greater than his Chi. Dan Jacobson, "Tsuruchi Sanjo", 10 Jul 2009
• Q: Kinda new here. So please excuse any mistakes on my part(if any).
  Kuon is the only personality in my attacking army. My friend defends with a tattoed monk and uses Hand of Osano Wo. Does the Ranged 3 does not happen? Or because it is conditional, it will still push through?
  References:
  Hand of Osano-Wo
  Battle: Target your unbowed Monk, and bow him if he is not Tattooed: Destroy a target enemy attachment. If its Personality now has no Followers, you may make a Ranged 3 Attack targeting him.
  Hida Kuon Exp. 6
  If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen. Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Move your target Personality there. If he moved, straighten him.
  Thanks for the info.
  [Mod edit: Thread title. -ZF]
  A: Assuming Kuon has an attachment which you can target for the effect in the first sentence, you can take the action, and it will happen because Kuon hasn't been targeted by the action at the point when his trait resolves. The Ranged Attack, because it's optional, and thus not targeted until effects resolution, will occur - although it won't generally do much! Alex Jones, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 10 Jul 2009
• Q: The question was just asked about kuon xp 6's trait and how it apparently doesn't work with flanked by nightmares: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77227
  In a previous question with failure of courage it was said that Kuon's trait would trigger: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77143&p=1013308&hilit=hida+kuon#p1013308
  can you please tell me if both answers were correct?
  If both answers are correct, then what is the difference in the situation that makes Kuon's trait trigger/not trigger?
  Thanks John
  A: The answer on Failure of Courage is incorrect, and is in process of being edited.
  Actions that have targeting as a delayed effect (Unicorn Wardogs, Failure of Courage, Flanked by Nightmares) do not trigger Hida Kuon Exp 6's trait, and will occur regardless.
  Do not confuse, however, targeting as a result of a delayed effect with required targeting. Dan Jacobson, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 7 Jul 2009
• Q: Still trying to figure out ways to get rid of T2 Kuon...
  Flanked by Nightmares says: Battle: If your current army has more units than the current enemy army, bow your target Shadowlands Personality: The enemy leader targets and destroys a Personality in his current army.
  As the enemy leader would target Kuon during the resolution of the action, Hida Kuon's (XP6) trait wouldn't trigger. Am I right in this?
  A: Appears to be correct.
  Note, however, that required targeting can be written in the effects block (see: http://rules.l5r.com/Abilities_and_acti ... _targeting), and would be affected by the trait. This is not required targeting here because it's being doing by a player other than the one taking the action. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 7 Jul 2009
• Q: Unicorn Wardog targeting being optional (you may), so as long as you don't target Kuon, he doesn't stop anything right?
  A: Yes. Though I note that wasn't the question ("uses the dogs ability against Hida Kuon xp6"). Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 5 Jul 2009
• Q: If player A has unicorn war dogs and 1 other Human unicorn in his army, and uses the dogs ability against Hida Kuon xp6 do the War Dogs still recieve +2F?
  A: No.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_R#Resolve: "An action or trait begins to resolve when its sequence of effect activation begins, assuming costs, targeting and conditions have been met."
  Kuon's effect comes in before any effects occur and stops them all.
  Correction: Has been pointed out to me that The targeting in Unicorn Wardogs is an effect that does not occur in the normal targeting stage. The action has already started to resolve when Kuon is targeted, so the Wardogs keep the +2F. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 5 Jul 2009
• Q: If I used Failure of Courage on Hida Kuon (Experienced 6) as my first Battle action, would Kuon move home?
  A: No, he will not move.
  The Experienced 6 Hida Kuon's trait looks for the "enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon", not the "first action in which the enemy leader targets Kuon."
  For Kuon's trait, who owns the action matters; who does the targeting does not.
  Correction: Because the target is not required targeting (not done by person playing the action), it occurs during effect resolution and cannot be affected by Kuon's trait.
  Sorry for the confusion. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 4 Jul 2009
• Q: Scenario Battle: I have X number of personalities at the battlefield and my opponent has Hida Kuon xp6, who is alone and unbowed, and I have not currently targeted Kuon with any actions. Opponent plays an action which targets one of my personalities and I react with Incredible Resilience. What happens? Since he chooses who to bow and I don't target Kuon with Resilience, does Kuon bow or does it not happen per Kuon's trait?
  Incredible Resilience Reaction: After the resolution of an enemy player's Battle action that targeted one of your Personalities: The player chooses and bows one of his unbowed Personalities at the current battlefield.
  Hida Kuon (Experienced 6) If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen. Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Move your target Personality there. If he moved, straighten him.
  Thank you for your time.
  A: Incredible Resilience doesn't target ("choose" is never synonymous with "target", no matter who does the choosing).
  Thus, it will never cause Kuon's trait to trigger. Brook Cunningham, "Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation", 3 Jul 2009