Hida Sozen

Legend of the Five Rings card from Lotus Edition, Winds of Change

Card Type

Personality

Force

4

Chi

3

Honor Requirement

0

Gold Cost

8

Personal Honor

2

Clan

Crab

Keywords

Yu 3, Crab Clan, Samurai

Card Text

While Sozen is in an army and no unit opposing him has greater total Force than his unit, negate Sozen's destruction except as a cost or from your card effects. (This does not protect attached cards from effects that destroy his entire unit.)

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Four Winds (Gold), Rain of Blood (Diamond)

Deck

Dynasty

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, "Hida Sozen 4F/3C 0HR 8G 2PH Crab Clan Samurai. Yu 3. While Sozen is in an army and no unit opposing him has greater total Force than his unit does, Sozen cannot be destroyed except as a cost or by your card and Stronghold effects. (This does not protect attached cards from effects that destroy his entire unit.)" [MRP, Lotus Edition, 31 October 2005] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 99
• A Personality who is only considered to be in the battle for purposes of particular actions (e.g., Agasha Chieh) is considered to be opposing Sozen while that action is resolving, allowing Sozen to be destroyed if the force is high enough. [ML, 10 May 2004] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 99

Rules Q&A

• Q: Let's say Hida Sozen is in a losing or tying army, but will not be destroyed because there's no Unit in the opposing army with higher Force than Sozen's.
  In this case, when we get to the Resolution Segment, can Sozen's controller play Pick Your Battles, choosing Sozen to stay behind?
  A: Jeff wrote in "rules for 12 March 2004": Martin Lund, "Rules for 2 July 2004", 2 Jul 2004
• Q: - If some cards in the losing army would not be destroyed due to a trait on those cards, EG "Hantei the 39th" or "Hida Sozen", may you play Pick your Battles?
  No.
  A: Until I here otherwise, that ruling stands. If some of your units or cards won't be destroyed, then it won't qualify as the Army being destroyed, not for your Pick Your Battles, nor for an opponent's Ikoma Sume.
  Army = all Units. Unit = Personality + all attached cards.
  If Sozen's destruction is Negated, you haven't destroyed the Unit. It you fail to destroy all the Units, you've failed to destroy the Army. Martin Lund, "Rules for 2 July 2004", 2 Jul 2004
• Q: Hida Sozen challenges another personality to a duel of force via the new Stronghold.
  A: The destruction of the loser of the duel is an effect of your stronghold, and thusly Sozen's trait will do nothing about it.
  Sozen says that he can't be destroyed in battle unless, "there is an opposing unit with more total Force than his unit or the destruction is an effect of your own card or Stronghold." Martin Lund, "Rules for 19 May 2004", 22 May 2004
• Q: This came up at a tournament recently and I'd like someone to clear this up. Crab was attacking Phoenix with Hida Sozen. Agasha Cheih XP, who was outside the battle, had Kuro's Fire, Isawa House Guard and more force in its unit than Sozen's. If Cheih cast Kuro's Fire, could it kill Sozen? A few questions arose from this. Is Cheih, although in the army, considered opposed to Sozen?
  A: Only while casting it. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 24 March 2004", 26 Mar 2004
• Q: - If some cards in the losing army would not be destroyed due to a trait on those cards, EG "Hantei the 39th" or "Hida Sozen", may your use Yu?
  A: Yes. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 12 March 2004", 13 Mar 2004
• Q: - If some cards in the losing army would not be destroyed due to a trait on those cards, EG "Hantei the 39th" or "Hida Sozen", may you play Pick your Battles?
  A: No. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 12 March 2004", 13 Mar 2004
• Q: Question #3
  When Hida Sozen is in a tied army and is not the highest force but the opposing player plays Pick Your Battles, removing all but one unit from his army and Sozen is now the highest force is he destroyed? (Yes this actually came up in a game). When does the force test occur?
  A: The test occurs when Sozen would be destroyed. In this instance, he does not die. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 2-3 March 2004", 4 Mar 2004
• Q: Relevant Card Text: Hida Sozen: Sozen cannot be DESTROYED WHILE IN AN ARMY unless there is an opposing unit with more total Force than his unit or the destruction is an effect of your own card or Stronghold. This does not protect attached cards from effects that destroy this entire unit.
  Pick Your Battles Reaction: Play BEFORE your army is destroyed for losing or tying in a battle. Only one unit of your choice in your army is destroyed. The rest return to their controller's homes, bowed. Your opponent in the battle still gains honor as if your entire army had been destroyed.
  I have a few questions Jeff.
  1.) If the cards attached to Sozen are NOT protected from destruction (i.e. this does not protect attached cards from effects that destroy this entire unit), why is the destruction of the army not satisfied? I would think that this would seem contradictory, since only Sozen's destruction is hindered.
  A: Sozen himself is as much a part of his army as the rest of his unit is. Destroying an entire army except for one card is not destroying an entire army. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 23 Feb. 2004", 24 Feb 2004
• Q: About Hida Sozen:
  If he is in a Battle, and he has a 2F Follower (making a 6F Unit) and opposes a 3F Personality with a 4F Follower (making a 7F unit), What happens if:
  1. The opposing Personality is bowed.
  A: The opposing UNIT has a total Force of 0. Sozen's unit has a total Force of 6. If these are the only units in the battle, the opposing army dies and Sozen's controller gains 4 Honor. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 23 Feb. 2004", 24 Feb 2004
• Q: FROM RULES POST:I have been informed that it was ruled that Hida Sozen cannot be the one unit to die for Pick Your Battles (and subsequently not die from his trait).
  Pick Your Battles cannot be played at all if Sozen is in the battle and isn't going to die because the trigger for Pick Your Battles isn't there.
  QUESTION: Does this ruling mean that Sozen is untargetable with Pick your battles while he is in an army? Or does it mean that while Sozen is in an army and his trait is in effect Sozen's controller cannot play Pick your battles?
  A: When I say "it can't be played", I mean "it can't be played." I don't mean "you can play it but can't target Sozen". Jeff Alexander, "rules for 20 Feb. 2004", 21 Feb 2004
• Q: I have been informed that it was ruled that Hida Sozen cannot be the one unit to die for Pick Your Battles (and subsequently not die from his trait).
  A: Pick Your Battles cannot be played at all if Sozen is in the battle and isn't going to die because the trigger for Pick Your Battles isn't there. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 16 Feb. 204", 18 Feb 2004
• Q: what happens when he is destroyed in a battle (Ranged Attack, duel, etc) -- where does he go?
  A: Nowhere. If his force is high enough, he does not die. Full stop. Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 5 December 2003", 5 Dec 2003
• Q: (Hida sozen + Celestial Sword + Follower) in a province with Sorrow path attached and defended with a 5 force total unit. Sorrow path resolves, Sozen Dies (by sorrows path)? Why?
  A: Because that's what the cards say. Sorrow's Path either:
  A) Destroys a unit. Because Sozen's trait protects him, not the unit (card text), so he dies.
  B) 3 cards in the army. Because there are only three cards in the army, destroying the attached cards makes Sozen's force less than the enemy unit, so his trait no longer protects him, so he dies. Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 16 October 2003, Part 2", 16 Oct 2003
• Q: But this one does not apply, IMHO, as Sozen can be targeted for the destruction effect - it just doesn't hurt him.
  A: I'll tweak the Archive entry slightly to reflect that. Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 5 October 2003", 5 Oct 2003
• Q: Toku stands alone against Hida Sozen. Toku plays Overwhelmed. What happens with Hida Sozen?
  A: This one (Rules Archive, specific cards, Overwhelmed): Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 3 October 2003", 4 Oct 2003
• Q: If i have two units in a battle, one being Hida Sozen and the other having less force and my opponent plays overwhelmed, can I choose to destroy Sozen, knowing full well he won't be destroyed, or am I forced to send back my two units ?
  A: To repeat Jeff's answer for the record: "Neither can you choose to destroy someone that you already know won't die."
  Both units leave. Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 22 September 2003, Part 2", 23 Sep 2003
• Q: If Sozen's unit has the higher strength at battle resolution, loosing the battle, can i play Pick your Battle on him?
  A: Tricky. I'm going to say that Sozen would survive, because Pick Your Battles doesn't destroy the chosen Personality, losing the battle does. Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 3 September 2003", 4 Sep 2003
• Q: With the following ruling, it was stated that personalities are not able to move into battlefields after being in battle resolution as the attacker the same turn, even though the movement action off of Ubogin cannot be negated. viewtopic.php?f=59&t=72856
  With the same justification for Hida Sozen, who cannot be killed by other players actions... Doesnt that make him immune to determination, since his death isn't negated, it just doesn't happen?
  A: But Sozen's death IS negated.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_C#Cannot: "When found in card text, and when referring to a type of cost or effect (e.g., bowing, Force bonuses), “cannot” (or "can not") means that a certain type of effect or cost is negated whenever it occurs." Brook Cunningham, "Hida Sozen/Hida Ubogin", 2 Jan 2009
• Q: Due to a recent ruling on chi death in the case of heated discussion.
  Heated discussion and chi death
  More specifically the additional part added to chi death
  Card features, Specific stats, Chi (added May 30th): "Ongoing and instantaneous effects that negate destruction [...] will not negate destruction from zero Chi [...] This rule also applies to effects that substitute some other effect, such as dishonoring, for destruction. [...] If the substitution comes from an ongoing or instantaneous effect, then the substitution fails.
  Does this mean that hida sozen xp2 now dies due to having zero chi, because it was ruled that he did not die due to it being a ongoing negating his destruction. Which is contray to the new ruling stated above on chi death. old Hida sozen and chi death ruling
  A: Hida Sozen's negation is continuous, not ongoing (Citation).
  He can still stop his own death from 0 Chi brought about other players' actions. Brook Cunningham, "Hida Sozen and Chi Death", 30 May 2008
• Q: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67920
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61715&p=789676
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67829&p=873928&hilit=Hida+Sozen#p873928
  using these as references... An action ends after its last effect is applied, if that effect is not a delayed effect. If an action's last effect is delayed, then the action ends instead after that effect is activated. However, An action resolves even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur. Effects of an action are independent. If any effect is negated, does not happen, or fails to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he was already in), the other effects still happen, and the action is still legal EXCEPTION: Some effects may be delayed (see Delayed effects) and are applied at a later time in the game than they resolve.
  A delayed effect is activated at one time, but is actually applied at another. Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time. A delayed effect that has been activated, but not yet applied, can still be negated by something that negates effects in general, such as "all effects from other players' cards." However, something that negates a specific type of effect, such as bowing, will only negate a delayed effect when it is actually applied.
  Player A plays Determination and Announces Hired Killer, the Action Resolves and Hida Sozen is about to be Destroyed (and thus, removed from the game via Determination) but Player B delays the Death with Razor of the Dawn.
  from my understanding of the rules the Result is... Determination activates and Resolves "even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur." Hired Killer Activates and Resolves, with its effect applied at a Future Time. At the end of the turn, the destruction effect is applied but negated by Hida Sozens ability.
  since Determination does not have an Ongoing effect (no While, Permanent or Until trigger) or an Continuous effects (due to the trigger "After") it no longer interferes with Sozen's ability to negate the death.
  A: Determination applies to all its action's effects: immediate, delayed and ongoing.
  At the end of the turn, Hida Sozen dies and is removed from the game. Alex Jones, "determination vs Hida Sozen + delay destruction", 8 May 2008
• Q: Say determination is used in conjunction with a card to kill Sozen, and courage in death or razor of the dawn is used to delay his destruction. Do the effects of Determination still apply when the delay effect is finished?
  A: Yes. Nothing has changed about the effect except when it's applied. He dies. Zen Faulkes, "determination vs Hida Sozen + delay destruction", 7 May 2008
• Q: If Sozen is challenged to a duel via an action, which had Determination played on it (with it?), does his trait negate the death if he loses the duel, or does Determination allow the action created duel to kill him?
  A: The latter.
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67117 viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61715
  Nothing special about duels in that regard. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Sozen, Determination, and duels from action cards", 5 May 2008
• Q: Hida Sozen (Experienced): Is he immune to rulebook death?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Source_of_effects: "A Personality’s destruction for having 0 Chi comes from the effect that last gave the Personality a Chi penalty, or from the rulebook if there was no such effect." (Emphasis added.)
  Ergo, any action that gives a Chi penalty that drops Hida Sozen (Experienced) to 0 Chi does not kill him. Zen Faulkes, "Hida Sozen ruling?", 23 Oct 2007
• Q: Since I believe the rules team is answering general rules questions about Samurai Edition (but not about new cards) this is about 3 or 4 already printed cards and their interactions with each other.
  Most specifically, Chi Death and Traits/Actions that Negate Destruction.
  I am to understand that Chi death is now ruled to be coming from an effect that is caused by the card that created the final chi loss.
  Muketsu gives -2C tokens out when a ring bows (like candy!)
  Hida Yaheiko is a 5F/2C Berseker personality that has a Reaction that reads "Whenever another player's card effect would destroy Yaheiko: Negate the destruction"
  If Muketsu were to give give her a -2C token, and I were to use her reaction what would happen?
  A) Yaheiko negates the effect, and the token is eliminated/made into a -0C token.
  B) Yaheiko negates the destruction effect, but the chi penalty remains, and is destroyed immediately thereafter.
  Hida Sozen (Experienced) has the trait that he cannot be destroyed by other player's actions. Assuming he were to be reduced to 2C by other means and then be given a -2C token from Muketsu, what would happen?
  A) His trait triggers and the action's effects fail. Hida Sozen still has 2 Chi.
  B) His trait triggers and the action's effects succeed, but Sozen cannot be destroyed by them, thus Sozen has 0 Chi and does not die.
  C) His trait triggers and the action's effects succeed, the first instance of 0 Chi does not kill him but he still has 0 Chi afterward, and the rulebook effect destroys him.
  Did I mention I hate Chi death as a mechanical aspect of this game?
  My own snide comments aside, thank you for answering this question.
  A: Same basic question and answer here: viewtopic.php?t=57674 Zen Faulkes, "General Samurai Rules Question: Chi Death vs. Negation", 25 Jun 2007