Lies, Lies, Lies...

Legend of the Five Rings card from Samurai Edition, Anvil of Despair, Jade Edition, Gold Edition, Pearl Edition, Promotional–Samurai

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Keywords

Political

Card Text

Limited: If you have no cards in play or in your discard piles that cause their player an Honor loss or have Kolat, Ninja, or Shadowlands: Gain 8 Honor; negate any portion of this gain that would raise your Family Honor above its starting value.

Focus Value

2

Legality

Clan Wars (Imperial), Four Winds (Gold), Hidden Emperor (Jade), Race for the Throne (Samurai)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rulings

• Clarified: your starting honor limits how high the gain can take you, not the amount of the gain. Text Change & Errata List, February 15, 2000, p. 4
• Q: What does the last sentence on Lies, Lies, Lies... mean? That the size of my gain can't be more than my starting number, or that my total honor after playing it can't be higher? A: The latter. Lies, Lies, Lies... can't take you above your starting honor. If you use it when you're already over, you gain nothing. Legend of the Five Rings FAQ, Version 3.6.2, May 1998, p. 21
• Erratum: Reads, "Lies, Lies, Lies… 0G 2FV Political Limited: If you have no cards in play or in your discard piles that cause their player an Honor loss or have the Shadowlands, Ninja, or Kolat keywords: Gain 8 Honor; this gain cannot raise your Family Honor above its starting value." [MRP, Samurai Edition, 25 July 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 144
• Cards "that cause an Honor loss" refers to Honor losses that occur from entering play, are required costs, or unconditional effects from any action on the card. It does not include conditional Honor losses. [ZF, 28 November 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 144

Rules Q&A

• Q: So, the follow-up question is as follows:
  In Time of War is in play. I start my turn at 3 honour, running Shiba Halls. I play Lies, Lies, Lies to raise my honour to 7. I am allowed to TWT this 4-point change to my opponent, even though my FH was raised to a new number (rather than me gaining X honour explicitly), according to the archives.
  A: Yes, because it is a normal gain. Jeff Alexander, "post for 29 April 2003", 30 Apr 2003
• Q: What about the example of Suspicions and Lies, Lies, Lies?
  A: Having Suspicions in effect would *not* prevent a player from using Lies, Lies, Lies... because:
  1. Suspicions does not stay in play (card text, see my previous rulings here)
  2. Lies, Lies, Lies... only cares about cards you *currently* control. Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 21 April 2003", 22 Apr 2003
• Q: Can I play Lies, Lies, Lies if I have a Sacrificial Altar in play?
  Lies, Lies, Lies "Political Limited: If you have less than your starting Family Honor and you control no Kolat, Ninja, or Shadowlands cards, or cards that cause you an Honor loss when played, either gain 8 Honor or raise your Family Honor to your starting Family Honor, whichever gains you less Honor" Sacrificial Altar Bow the Sacrificial Altar and destroy one of your Personalities or Followers to produce an amount of Gold equal to twice the Personality's or Follower's Force. Lose an amount of Honor equal to the Personality's or Follower's Force It doesn't cause an honor loss when brought into play, so I would say no, but I would like some clarification. Thanks.
  A: I think you mean "yes". Yes, you can play Lies, Lies, Lies, since the Altar doesn't fit into any of the categories of cards that invalidate it. Jeff Alexander, "post for 29 January 2002", 30 Jan 2002
• Q: A ruling was issued shortly after the release of Seppun Sensei regarding the card "Lies, Lies, Lies"
  the essentials of the rule were that the two effects of the card(the Honor gain of 8, then the concurrent loss to starting family honor) could not be separated because while it was 2 separate effects, they were in a chain that could not be severed. Thus, you cannot gain the 8, then cancel the concurrent loss. ( I understand that the primary reason for this was to prevent the abuse of Lies...) But, it does make logical sense, and is consistent, and I think it should be considered across the board for actions.
  A: That was a purely play balance-related ruling. Treating LLL as a separate gain and loss opens wide holes for abuse. You don't even need Seppun Sensei, really. You can just Favor the loss away, or Wind's Truth it to someone else. It's not a matter of it being a chain of effects, per se. Jeff Alexander, "Rulings for 12-14 March 2001", 22 Mar 2001
• Q: A Spider deck with any personalities with printed honor losses, regardless of the fact those losses never happen (meaning any Spider personalities with honor losses) can never use Lies, Lies, Lies.
  A: As of now, correct. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 4 Mar 2009
• Q: These rulings are shocking me.
  How can Demented Craftsman be a conditional honor loss? When a player from any clan other than Spider clan announces he's bringing into play a Demented Craftsman, the outcome of the trait triggering is known: he'll lose 1 honor. No choices here.
  According to Zen's ruling: And one last clarification: The Honor losses have to be unconditional (i.e., not dependent on a player choice or outcome of an action, etc.). (Emphasis mine)
  There's no definition of "conditional" in the Comprehensive rules glossary (probably because that term isn't printed in cards under Samurai Edition, after the Rosoku Sensei mess in Lotus), so tentatively the using of this term in rulings is a double-edged sword. But using the Legacy rules: An effect is conditional if, at the time the action, Event, or trait producing that effect begins resolving, it has not yet been determined whether the effect will occur. (Again, Emphases mine)
  I believe that the triggered trait of Demented Craftsman creates only a conditional honor loss if you're a Spider Clan player. If you're not, then it creates a non-conditional honor loss, because you know that no matter what you'll lose 1 Honor. It has been determined at the moment your stronghold isn't Spider Clan, and you don't have a choice here. And hence it should restrict playing Lies, Lies, Lies... in the case of non-Spider players.
  Alternatively, can I have a Samurai rules definition of "conditional effects"? So that we can discern whether Lies, Lies, Lies can be played or not...
  P.S. The request of a definition of "Conditional effects" is honest: I don't like the Legacy definition because it's a little bit ambiguous.
  A: The "blind cards" ruling (http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Blind_cards_rule) is at work here.
  Since there's no current definition, I'm going to fall back on old general principles. When you pick up and read Demented Craftsman -- or any card, for that matter, and ask the question, "Does this card cause an honor loss?", there are three possible answers: "Yes," "No," and "Maybe." If the answer is maybe, the effect is conditional. The specific wording on Demented Craftsman is unusual (which is why I initially fluffed the ruling), but that doesn't change the answer. Does it cause an honor loss? Maybe. Depends on what your stronghold is. But, following the blind cards rule, you don't consider what stronghold is in play. You read the card text in isolation.
  We'll see what we might do about a better definition. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 12 Feb 2009
• Q: Just to be sure i understand well the last answer.
  If you have in play a Demented Craftsman. You could play Lies, lies, lies... and that even if you are not a spider clan player ?
  A: That is correct. Dan Jacobson, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 12 Feb 2009
• Q: Previous Topic
  Definition of Instead.
  The substitution of Y for X is not a negation of X.
  I'm still a little confused by the explanation.
  I have a few followup questions: Doesn't the "if" modifier, as in "if you are a Spider Clan player you may instead gain 1 Honor", then make the substitution conditional, which is what Lies, Lies, Lies checks for in determining the nature of the effect?
  Additionally, by the definition of substitution, wouldn't the card effectively then read: After this card enters play: Gain 1 Honor., which is allowable by Lies, Lies, Lies?
  Or is it disallowed simply because although the substitution is conditional, it still happens singularly, meaning the card's effect is effectively the same?
  I guess I'm just looking for the full logic by which the card's wording prevents Lies, Lies, Lies from being played.
  A: Having thought on this a little more, the previous post was wrong. The honor loss is conditional. Sorry for the goof. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 11 Feb 2009
• Q: (W)ould playing Demented Craftsman restrict me from playing Lies, Lies, Lies?
  A: Yes. The honor loss ("Lose 1 honor") is not conditional. The Spider clause is a substitution, not a condition. See http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_I-J#Instead. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies + Demented Craftsman", 11 Feb 2009
• Q: If you can explain how a card does not cause its player an honor loss but counts as a card that caused its player an honor loss, I'll drop this line of questioning.
  A: It does not have to "count as a card that caused its player an honor loss."
  The card text on Lies, Lies, Lies ... says: "If you have no cards in play or in your discard piles that cause their player an Honor loss."
  "that cause their player an Honor loss," != "that caused you to lose honor."
  If "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." said "caused their player an Honor loss," I'd be on board with you. Heck, if it said, "cause you an Honor loss," I'd be more sympathetic, but the phrase "cause their player an Honor loss," seems clear to me - it wants to know what the effects of the action are as-is, not what the successfully activated or applied effects of the action would be if you specifically played the card right now. Martin Lund, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Spider's Lair", 1 May 2008
• Q: Bayushi Paneki x4 and Bayushi Kaukatsu x2 are triggered traits
  A: That's completely true. Paneki is not an appropriate example as he does not modify an Action's effects or costs at all. I've amended that statement. However, there are effects like those of the Crab's Strength, Kuni Daigo, or Shosuro Kamatari that all add additional costs to actions when you play them. Cards like "Deeds, Not Words" similarly add additional effects to actions whenever they resolve. You don't take any those additional costs or effects into consideration when you look for a card in a hand or discard pile with that particular cost or effect due to Blind Cards. Martin Lund, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Spider's Lair", 1 May 2008
• Q: So does this mean that I can ignore Houritsu Mura's effect on my personality's personal honor as far as legality of announcing actions with personal honor based restrictions goes?
  A: Let's see: Martin Lund, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Spider's Lair", 1 May 2008
• Q: Personalities opposing one or more of your Magistrates have -1PH.
  A: Doesn't look like it, assuming your card checks for a Personality with a Current Stat Value of a particular number. That number is currently modified by Houritsu Mura. Of course, specific examples would be necessary, not vague hypotheticals.
  The ability text of Hired Killer in your Discard Pile, however, is not modified by The Spider's Lair. Honor losses are prevented from happening whenever you play the card, but the ability itself on the card is in no way modified. If another player copies the ability and uses it they still suffer the honor loss because the ability is not modified. The card's stats, text, and base abilities are completely unmodified by the trait. Martin Lund, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Spider's Lair", 1 May 2008
• Q: Hired Killer does not cause a Spider's Lair player to lose honor. Lies Lies Lies does not care if an honor loss effect exists, as printed it is concerned with cards that cause their player an honor loss. Lies Lies Lies should be legal for a Spider's Lair player to announce as long as they have no shadowlands, ninja, kolat, or non-spider clan dynasty honor loss cards in play or discard piles.
  A: No, Chris.
  "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." looks for cards which "cause their player an honor loss" as part of their own effects.
  It is limited specifically to the text of the card in question. "Their player," specifies that the card cause the player who plays the card to be the one taking the Honor Loss, not another player. That descriptor distinguishes a card such as Hired Killer ("causes their player an honor loss") from a card such as Assigning Blame ("causes an honor loss") - nothing else.
  We don't take the trait of a Spider Stronghold into consideration when looking for a "card that causes their player an honor loss" any more than we take a card that says your actions have "an additional cost," or your duels have "an additional result." Additive or subtractive modifications of an Action's base effects are EXACTLY why we don't have "Smart Cards."
  You still can't play "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." if you have a card in your Discard Pile with the trait "Lose 3 honor," an ability with an Honor loss cost, or an ability with an effect that says "Lose 3 honor," like Hired Killer - regardless of whether or not your Stronghold allows you to lose honor. Martin Lund, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Spider's Lair", 1 May 2008
• Q: When a rule or card text needs to know what an action does or will do, it only takes into account the current text of the action. It does not consider any continuous, ongoing or triggered effects that change or negate the action's own function.
  A: "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." is specifically a case where Blind Cards applies. The restriction wants to know if a specific type of card exists. That type of card is defined and identified independently of the continuous effect of the Spider player's Stronghold that changes its function.
  If you had a Reaction or Trait that waived the Restriction of the Action, rather than one that merely modifies the effects of other cards referenced by the Restriction, then the section on the Good Faith Rule would apply.
  But you don't, so it doesn't. Martin Lund, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Spider's Lair", 1 May 2008
• Q: When a rule or card text needs to know what an action does or will do, it only takes into account the current text of the action. It does not consider any continuous, ongoing or triggered effects that change or negate the action's own function.
  A: Citation
  Use the card text only. It tells its played "Lose 3 Honor." The fact that said player doesn't lose honor due to the rules on his or her Stronghold don't change the nature of the card itself.
  So, "Lies, Lies, Lies ..." can not be played by a Spider player with a Hired Killer in his Discard Pile, even though the Hired Killer isn't ever going to cause him to lose honor due to his Stronghold Trait. Martin Lund, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Spider's Lair", 1 May 2008
• Q: If the action on a Chuda Hankyu does not preclude you from gaining honor via Lies, Lies, Lies, then is the same true for any action card that has an honor loss as an effect?
  A: Yes. I believe that's how it's always worked, but don't have an old printing handy at the moment. Zen Faulkes, "RE: Lies, Lies, Lies and Chuda Hankyu", 10 Aug 2007
• Q: Do I gain the Honor from Lies, Lies, Lies... if I have a Chuda Hankyu in my discard pile?
  A: Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Lies, Lies, Lies... + Chuda Hankyu", 10 Aug 2007
• Q: [Imperial]
  Can I have Kolat Assassin in my discard pile and still use Lies, Lies, Lies… since the oracle text includes the discard pile, but not in the card
  A: In Imperial, yes, you can. Oracle text is based on the Samurai Edition MRP. Brook Cunningham, "Sun and Moon #rules-questions", 14 Feb 2026