No Victory

Legend of the Five Rings card from Lotus Edition, Web of Lies, Training Grounds 2, Drums of War

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

3

Keywords

Iaijutsu

Card Text

You may only play one No Victory per duel.
Reaction: After a duel ends that your Personality won while facing the highest Gold Cost Personality another player controlled (including ties): Create a 5F/4C/3PH Samurai • Duelist Personality in your home or at the current battlefield. Remove him from the game when your next turn ends.

Focus Value

4

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Rain of Blood (Diamond)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, "No Victory 3G 4FV You may play only one No Victory per duel. Iaijutsu Reaction: After a duel ends that you won against the most expensive Personality another player controlled (including ties): Create a 5F/4C Samurai Duelist Personality with 3 Personal Honor in your home or at the current battlefield. Remove him from the game at the end of your next turn." [MRP, Drums of War, 22 May 2006] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 26

Rules Q&A

• Q: 1/If I play Kokujin's Daisho and destroy the personality card created by No Victory to it, will the Daisho gain +6F/+5C ? Basically, do the personality card have printed stats ?
  A: The Archive entry under Tokens should apply to this situation cleanly:
  "Treat references to "printed" force as "base" force for tokens. [ZF, 7 June 2000]" (Accumulated Rulings, "Tokens") Martin Lund, "Rules for 17 January 2005", 21 Jan 2005
• Q: What happens if I play an Egg on a No Victory Token? Do I get a permanent 6/5 duellist honnored of 3 or does the "destruct after the end of turn X) a "permanent change".
  A: Pay close attention to the card text of No Victory.
  "Create a 6F/5C Duelist Personality card with 3 Personal Honor in your home or in the current battle. Remove it from the game at the end of your next turn."
  Two separate sentences with two distinct effects. There is no reason to believe that "Remove it from the game at the end of your next turn," is something that is added to the Duelist Personality's card.
  The Egg would be a 6/5 3PH Personality. Martin Lund, "Rules for 16 January 2005", 20 Jan 2005
• Q: Following, what happens if I Suitengu Surge my No Victory Token? (sorry if this one was already answered)
  A: If you use Surge to remove Personality from the game on the turn where it as going to be removed from the game by No Victory at the end of the turn, you manage to dodge the removal clause of No Victory completely. No Victory can't remove the Personality from the game, because it is already out of play. The effect fails.
  Once your Personality returns to play, the "remove from the game" effect of No Victory is already done with and will never attempt to "reapply" itself. It was a one-shot trigger, it failed, and its time has passed. Martin Lund, "Rules for 16 January 2005", 20 Jan 2005
• Q: Basically what I'm asking is, if I have 2 people with the same gold cost, and they are both my highest cost personality, and one of them loses a Victory of Death duel.....can the winner go find a No Victory. I'm not asking anything about the duel resulting in a tie. I'm strictly speaking of the cost of the people.
  Quote:
  Quote:
  If you win and the loser was the most expensive Personality his controller controlled (including ties)
  How is this (including ties) clause to be read. For purposes of example just say I have 2 Bairezu in play and one just lost the duel.
  Is it:
  A. Saying include the ties when checking to see if he's the highest cost personality, in which case there are 2 tied at 10G so he's not the definitive highest. Or..
  B. Saying include the ties as in they are all counted as one person for purpose of being the highest, in which case he would be the highest as far as the duel was concerned.
  Searched the forums and lists for weeks and have seen the question posted but no official answer ever given. Requesting one.
  A: OK. I think I see what you're driving at now.
  The card is describing its play timing as when you defeat the highest-cost Personality - including when you defeat a Personality tied for the highest cost. Martin Lund, "Victory or Death/No Victory and Ties", 11 Apr 2005
• Q: Question: can you win a Victory or Death challenge (against the most expensive enemy personality), search for No Victory (as per the text of Victory or Death), and then immediately play that copy of No Victory as per its text?
  It seems to me that this is the idea of how the two cards are intended to work together, but I don't see how this fits with the following ruling from the accumulated rulings:
  Quote:
  Outside effects and reactions triggered by winning or losing a duel occur before the results of the duel itself, because winning occurs when Chi totals are compared and one is found to be higher. [JA, 19-20 February 2004]
  Since No Victory is triggered "After you win a duel", whilst Victory or Death's search effect is a standard result of the duel, by the above ruling, the opportunity to react with No Victory falls before the opportunity to search for it.
  Is this correct?
  A: You've got a solid point there. It'll let you get No Victory, but the time to play No Victory has already come and gone.
  That's just like the Walking the Way for Ring of Air situation, come to think of it.
  So you can't follow up a Victory or Death with the copy of No Victory it fetches for you - at least until Jeff says otherwise. Martin Lund, "Victory or Death & No Victory", 28 Mar 2005
• Q: Doesn't that whole cardinal rule thing come into play here?
  A: No. Nothing on the card texts of Victory or Death or No Victory overrides the general rule. Zen Faulkes, "Victory/Death/No Victory Follow Up", 28 Mar 2005
• Q: The intended effect of the two cards was that they would interact with each other, correct?
  A: "Intention" is only one factor in making rulings, and it often is a small consideration. Rules have to be consistent, and if "intention" and consistency fight... Let's just say that a ruling on "intent" affects one card; an issue with consistency affects many cards. Zen Faulkes, "Victory/Death/No Victory Follow Up", 28 Mar 2005
• Q: So per the rulebook, you can't do it. Doesn't that whole cardinal rule thing come into play here? The intended effect of the two cards was that they would interact with each other, correct?
  A: The First Cardinal Rule says nothing about intent.
  The cards, as worded, do not let you play Victory or Death first, fetch No Victory, and then play the fetched No Victory in that same duel. This will not change until errata is issued to the rulebook or the cards in question, or until the current general rulings on timing within duels are reversed. Whether this particular card interaction was the intent (and it clearly wasn't) is irrelevant because the rules are unambiguous and this interaction does not create a power issue.
  The Rules Team is considering refersing the ruling that Reactions and triggered effects that occur "when you win a duel" occur in the middle of resolution prior to the duel's own win/loss results, and instead have them occur immediately after the duel ends, as the current ruling produces several unintuitive and complicated results. However, we have not yet made this reversal, and will not until after the Kotei season is over even if we do decide it is the best course of action. Zen Faulkes, "Victory/Death/No Victory Follow Up", 28 Mar 2005
• Q: i thought that on any one action you are able to play as many reactions as possible on the original action that was played. so being that the ability to search for the no victory is part of the victory or death, shouldn't the reaction to play the no victory still be in the whole reaction phase of the duel.
  A: No.
  Here's how it goes: Enter the challenge. Personalities focus. One strikes. Flip the cards and total stat plus focus values.
  Determine the winner; the Personality with the higher stat wins.
  Play Reactions to winning the duel. the trigger has just occurred, and you can't wait to play the Reaction until other effects from the action have resolved (e.g., honor gains, etc.).
  Continue to resolve those other effects of the duel, which, in this case, is to retreive a card and put it in your hand.
  The current rules are unambiguous. There is no wiggle room. We're not going to "leave it that way" because it never was "that way." Not really. Just because many people assumed it was legal does not make it legal. I'm not saying it's intuitive, but it is consistent. I do not believe that players really want a game where two cards can have the exact same text but not work the same way. Enforcing consistency in the rules causes short-term pain, but long-term gain. Zen Faulkes, "VICTORY OR DEATH AND NO VICTORY AGAIN", 28 Mar 2005
• Q: Question: can you win a Victory or Death challenge (against the most expensive enemy personality), search for No Victory (as per the text of Victory or Death), and then immediately play that copy of No Victory as per its text?
  It seems to me that this is the idea of how the two cards are intended to work together, but I don't see how this fits with the following ruling from the accumulated rulings:
  Since No Victory is triggered "After you win a duel", whilst Victory or Death's search effect is a standard result of the duel, by the above ruling, the opportunity to react with No Victory falls before the opportunity to search for it.
  Is this correct?
  A: You've got a solid point there. It'll let you get No Victory, but the time to play No Victory has already come and gone.
  That's just like the Walking the Way for Ring of Air situation, come to think of it.
  So you can't follow up a Victory or Death with the copy of No Victory it fetches for you - at least until Jeff says otherwise. Martin Lund, "Victory or Death & No Victory", 24 Mar 2005