Obsidian Dragon

Legend of the Five Rings card from Samurai Edition, Rise of the Shogun

Card Type

Personality

Force

6

Chi

4

Honor Requirement

-

Gold Cost

10

Personal Honor

0

Clan

Unaligned

Keywords

Cavalry, Unique, Dragon, Nonhuman, Obsidian, Shugenja

Card Text

Will not attach Items or Followers.
Non-Unique Personalities have a Force and Chi penalty equal to their own Personal Honor while they oppose Obsidian Dragon, which will not reduce their Chi below 1.

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Race for the Throne (Samurai)

Deck

Dynasty

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, "Obsidian Dragon 6F/4C –HR 10G 0PH Shugenja • Dragon • Nonhuman • Cavalry • Unique Cannot attach Items or Followers. Non-Unique Personalities have a Force and Chi penalty equal to their own Personal Honor while they oppose Obsidian Dragon; this will not reduce Chi below 1." [MRP, Samurai Edition, 25 July 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 149
• Imposes a minimum on its own penalty, not to the Chi stat. [CF, ZF, 1 September 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 149

Rules Q&A

• Q: Since the current questions regarding Obsidian Dragon and Doomed Undertaking have to do with movement, I just want to make sure that the cards interact like I think they do when people aren't moving around.
  If I have the Obsidian Dragon in a battle opposing a number of non-unique personalities, all of whom have been reduced to 1 Chi via the Obsidian Dragon's ability, and I choose to play Doomed Undertaking, to the non-unique personalities opposing the Obsidian Dragon die from having 0 Chi?
  Thank you.
  A: Yes, they die.
  In your non-moving scenario, there's no timing conflict between the Obs Dragon's trait and Doomed Undertaking's effect. The latter is unquestionably succeeding the former, and later penalties will drag the guys to death because:
  http://rules.l5r.com/Rulings_O#Obsidian_Dragon: "Imposes a minimum on its own penalty, not to the Chi stat. This is calculated only once and will not change later." Brook Cunningham, "Obsidian Dragon and Doomed Undertaking", 15 May 2009
• Q: This has already been covered in: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=75603
  They are NOT both continuous effects. Only the O Dragon is. Obsidian Dragon is a blanket penalty that constantly checks and rechecks. Doomed Undertaking is an instantaneous effect (like Unfamiliar Ground) and applies immediately, ending at the end of turn. Making someone Shadowlands after the terrain effects begin changes nothing.
  Also, I don't see an argument for a timing conflict. There is no conflict. There are two possible scenarios: Dragon started there, Doomed Undertaking is played. In this case, Dragon's penalty is on already. Then something else (the terrain happens). Hey look, 2 things didn't try to happen at the same time. Active player decides nothing.
  Doomed Undertaking is on, Dragon moves in. Again, not two things going on, just one at a time. However in this case, the dragon won't take anyone to 0 because he limits his own chi loss (the minimum 1 applies). Again, active player decides nothing.
  A: See http://rules.l5r.com/Timing
  The Obsidian Dragon and Doomed Undertaking both have a "conditional continuous trait": 3. Effects of conditional continuous traits, if the triggering occurrence means that their condition becomes true, begin at the "when" point. Effects of such traits that no longer apply because their condition is now false, also end at the "when" point. See Duration of effects. Example: "This card has +2F while bowed." The Force bonus is gained "when" the card bows and lost "when" the card straightens.
  These are resolved in step B of "Resolving Timing Conflicts": B. If the point in time is a "when" timing, continuous conditional effects that depend on the triggering occurrence take effect now.
  This is missing an explicit "The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply," but that is still true.
  Note that there is a triggering occurrence for these effects: the Personality moving to the battlefield causes them to both start to apply. Alex Jones, "Obsidian Dragon and Doomed Undertaking", 14 May 2009
• Q: So once the penalty is calculated, will it change due to variance in PH?
  A: Yes.
  See http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Gene ... bout_stats, which has a lengthy example that explicitly addresses this. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon + PH Variance", 12 May 2009
• Q: Obsidian Dragon and Doomed Undertaking are in play at a battlefield. The attacker has a 4chi 3ph non unique personality at home. What happens when this personality moves to the battlefield?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Timing#Resolving_timing_conflicts: Active player chooses order the penalties apply. In this case, the order matters.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Rulings_O#Obsidian_Dragon: "Obsidian Dragon's Chi penalty will be reduced if it plus other current penalties would result in a Personality having less than 1C. This is calculated only once and will not change later."
  Obsidian Dragon penalty goes first, a later penalty can drop a Personality below 1C. If it goes last, the Personality will not drop below 1C. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon and Doomed Undertaking", 12 May 2009
• Q: ((A) player has Shiba Miiko, the Obsidian Dragon and 2 other shugenja at a battlefield. This gives the Obsidian Dragon 9F. The opponent has Moshi Taya. Taya is also 2F and 2 PH -- meaning her force at the battle with Obsidian Dragon is 0F. (Taya) targets the Obsidian Dragon(...) her force is now 9, and the Obsidian Dragon's force is now 0. (I)s that correct?
  A: Yes. See "Setting stats to a value": http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Gene ... bout_stats Zen Faulkes, "Force Effects", 11 Dec 2007
• Q: Further, Miiko's trait still affects the Obsidian Dragon, taking his force from 0 to 3.
  A: No. Do not reapply bonuses or penalties. They are already part of the calculation for the stat and do not apply twice. Zen Faulkes, "Force Effects", 11 Dec 2007
• Q: During my Action Phase, I announce the Equip action. I announce I intend to target the bowed Samurai. My opponent is surprised, he says I can't target his own personality. I promise I am following the Good Faith Rule, which a judge can confirm. My opponent plays Turn of Fortune nonetheless, because he wants to make my Equip action target his Obsidian Dragon. What happens at that time ?
  A: You have no card that can legally attach to Obsidian Dragon in your hand. Ruthless Bandits is the only card you can attach to the other player's Personalities. Ruthless Bandits can not attach to Obsidian Dragon due to the Obsidian Dragon's trait. The Action fails due to illegality caused by another player altering the action's targeting. Treat it the same way you would an illegal targeting configuration as below: Martin Lund, "Obsidian Dragon with a follower thanks to a Turn of Fortune", 13 Nov 2007
• Q: From the point when the action is announced legally to the point where the targeting is required, if any of the action’s required targeting is interfered with and required targeting can no longer be met, the action’s effects do not resolve and its costs are waived. It is still considered taken, but not resolved. If it was on an Action card, the card is discarded normally.
  A: In a tournament, if you want to be certain that the acting player had a legal play and now has no legal play due to the redirection, call a judge. Martin Lund, "Obsidian Dragon with a follower thanks to a Turn of Fortune", 13 Nov 2007
• Q: Second question. Actually my opponent controls no Monk, only a bowed Samurai and the unbowed Obsidian Dragon. Now is his Turn of Fortune not legal to play, or legal but with no effect? I am thinking of the exception to the rule about Instead: "In effects that substitute targeting, if the new target has to be a "legal" target, then failure to find a new legal target -- one that satisfies the requirements of the original targeting plus any additional requirements on targeting from other sources -- means the original targeting happens normally" but I don't understand it well in such complex game state...
  A: Kind of a hedge case, but it would be safe to say that the redirection is legal, since the Attachment Targeting hasn't been publicly declared yet. Yes, the acting player knows he would have to target Ruthless Bandits to make the play legal, but he still hasn't done so yet.
  Turn of Fortune resolves normally. The Attachment Action will just fail as above. Martin Lund, "Obsidian Dragon with a follower thanks to a Turn of Fortune", 13 Nov 2007
• Q: EXCEPTION: In card text, when referring to entering play, attaching, using a trait, or taking an action, "cannot" and "can only" are restrictions on the legality of that thing in the first place, not negation of its effects.
  A: - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey Martin Lund, "Obsidian Dragon with a follower thanks to a Turn of Fortune", 13 Nov 2007
• Q: Are the Rules Junta taking question in reguard to the obsidian dragon, yet?
  A: The current ruling: http://rules.l5r.com/Rulings_O#Obsidian_Dragon
  See also: http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Gene ... bout_stats. It has a lengthy example using Obsidian Dragon. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon", 1 Oct 2007
• Q: To what stimuli do fluctuating bonuses and penalties respond?
  A: The changes in the number they reference for their penalty. The example given in the rules is one where someone has +1F for each Samurai in play. When a Samurai is destroyed, the bonus fluctuates - adjusting downward by one from +3F for 3 Samurai to +2F for 2 remaining Samurai.
  As noted here. Martin Lund, "Sorry; ANOTHER Obsidian Dragon post", 5 Sep 2007
• Q: In the case of the Dragon, whether the receiver of its penalty opposes the Dragon and what the current value of receiver's PH will inarguably cause a fluctuation.
  A: Not quite true. The current PH changing can cause a fluctuation. Opposing / not opposing status does not cause fluctuation. It ends or begins anew the effect itself, as per the rules on Continuous Effects: Martin Lund, "Sorry; ANOTHER Obsidian Dragon post", 5 Sep 2007
• Q: Additionally, if a continuous effect has a condition on it the effect begins at any point when the condition is met and the relevant cards are in play. Example: "Your Samurai have +1F while they are opposed." In this example, the effect on each Samurai begins when that Samurai becomes opposed.
  Continuous effects from cards upon other cards normally end when one (or both) of the two cards leaves play or when the effect's condition is no longer met. In the example, the effect on each Samurai ends when that Samurai is no longer opposed.
  A: That covers that. Martin Lund, "Sorry; ANOTHER Obsidian Dragon post", 5 Sep 2007
• Q: Should violation of that minimum due to additional Chi penalties cause a fluctuation?
  A: No. Each bonus or penalty value needs to be calculated and committed in the order it was introduced to the Personality. That's really the only perspective any effect can reference when looking for the current value of a card. It shouldn't be taking into account its own effects before they are calculated (causality), nor any subsequent effects (which might be dependent on the prior effects).
  Take, for example, a Terrain that says, "All your Samurai with 4 or more Force have +2 Force." If one of your 4F (base) Samurai is at the Battlefield and has 6F currently, when he gets a -2F penalty, he doesn't suddenly lose the Terrain's bonus. If he dropped to 3F, though, it would end the Terrain's effect and he's continue dropping down to 1 Force.
  Stat bonuses and penalty effects always need to be calculated as a series of sequential operations of things get screwy. Martin Lund, "Sorry; ANOTHER Obsidian Dragon post", 5 Sep 2007
• Q: There are presently no clear answers in the CR.
  A: No, there really isn't. All that is said is that in Step A of determining the current value of a Stat you apply all bonuses and penalties. It should probably say, "in the order they were received," or something. I'll talk to the Rules Team about it. Martin Lund, "Sorry; ANOTHER Obsidian Dragon post", 5 Sep 2007
• Q: I'm just looking for a full clarification of how Obsidian Dragon works with other chi penalties. There are currently some replies that say the interaction is one way, some another, and some that appear to be in conflict but apparently aren't.
  I think that the current interpretation of Obsidian Dragon are as follows:
  By way of example: During a battle where a non-unique personality opposes the Obsidian Dragon. A 4 chi 3 pH personality will suffer -3 chi from Obsidian Dragon normally. If that personality later suffers a -1 chi penalty from another source the Dragon's penalty becomes -2 chi. If the personality suffers a -3 chi penalty the Obsidian Dragon's penalty becomes -0 chi. If the unfortunate personality suffers a -4 chi penalty he dies, the Obsidian Dragon's trait does not save him.
  Is this correct?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Rulings_O#Obsidian_Dragon Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon Clarification", 4 Sep 2007
• Q: RE: This.
  My apologies, Zen; I completely overlooked your post underneath Chris's in the link you provided in the above answer. In it, you agree with Chris that further Chi penalities after and seperate from the Obsidian Dragon's WILL reduce a Personality to 0C.
  But, twice afterward, you contradict that post:
  Here, four hours after your post below Chris's, you tell the asker that the Dragon's penality will be re-calculated AFTER a LATER Chi penality is incurred, per the asker's example.
  And then here, twelve hours after that, you say that "Marty was overruled". But Marty's answer describes in the affirmative an example that is the same as all previous; a Chi penalty incurred AFTER the Obsidian Dragon's killing a Personality due to zero Chi.
  I find even your latest answer directing me to Chris's and your joint answer to be confusing, both in light of the later contradictions, and because you seem to imply some vague fault with Chris's answer (not stating an exact number for the further penalty) while not acknowledging those later contradictions.
  Again, I mean no disrespect, and I thank you for your time in helping myself and others parse these rulings.
  A: Ignore everything I wrote, then. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon clarification (final?)", 2 Sep 2007
• Q: Re: This.
  I'm sorry, but the assertions that Marty has been outvoted and that the Obsidian Dragon's Chi penality constantly re-adjusts (in the first link in the above post) both appear erroneous.
  The second point in the wiki on the Dragon says clearly "A Personality's Chi can be reduced to 0C by Chi penalties from sources other than Obsidian Dragon." as Marty asserts in the second link in the above post. Also, the very day the wiki entry was added, Chris ruled the same way here, that an additional Chi penalty CAN kill a Personality suffering Obsidian Dragon penalites.
  It seems to me that the re-adjustment ruling is based on the first point of the wiki, "Obsidian Dragon's Chi penalty will be reduced if it plus other current penalties would result in a Personality having less than 1C." As I read it, this is only referring to the penality's initial (and only) application, to clarify the fact that the penality itself incurs a minimum as opposed to the stat, and it is not meant to imply constant recalculation. If it IS meant to imply constant recaluculation, then it at least directly contradicts the second point.
  Please, I strongly feel further clarification is needed.
  A: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61151: Chris says you need another penalty to kill someone, but doesn't say how much of a penalty. My post in the same thread also says that the Obsidian Dragon penalty does not provide blanket protection against dying from 0C, so another penalty can kill someone. The two posts do not necessarily contradict. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon Clarification (4)", 2 Sep 2007
• Q: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61161 http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59814&p=768323&hilit=Obsidian+Dragon#p768323
  Okay. These seem to contradict each other. This is the way I see it, please correct me if I'm wrong. We'll use the same two effects so as to keep things easy. Obsidian Dragon and Earth Becomes Sky. We are also assuming in this case that the Personality getting hit is a 4 Chi 4 PH personality.
  Situation A: Personality assigns Vs. Obsidian Dragon. They go to 1 Chi. They then Get hit with Earth Becomes Sky. Do they go to 1 Chi again via the Dragon modifying its penalty, or does the personality die? (In my estimation they die.)
  Situation B: Personality assigns. Personality gets hit with Earth Becomes Sky. Obsidian Dragon gets brought in via Ring of Water or another movement effect. Do they go down to 1 Chi, or die? (In my estimation they go to 1 Chi.)
  A: Marty is outvoted. Follow the Obsidian Dragon entry in the wiki. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon Clarification (3)", 2 Sep 2007
• Q: In regard to the answer in this topic
  Premise: A 3 Chi, 3 PH personality is at/in the Battle A. Obsidian Dragon is also there. The Obsidian Dragon would apply a penality of -3 Chi, but only applies a penalty of -2 Chi due to his "not below 1" limitation, reducing the personality to 1 Chi
  Situation 1) the personality gets hit with a new -1 Chi penalty during the battle. Will his or her Chi drop to 0 (1 Chi - 1 Chi) or will the Dragon readjust his own penalty to compensate (-1 Chi from the dragon instead of -2 Chi)? Does the personality at any time have 0 Chi and die? Situation 2) the personality get a Chi boost of 1. Will the dragon adjust it's penality to the full -3 Chi (dropping the personality back to 1 Chi) or will the personality now have 2 Chi?
  A: The penalty from Obsidian Dragon changes so as not to violate its own text. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon (clarification)", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: chuda rintaro targets kaakita hideo with the open ability printed on him. durring the attack phase obsidian dragon assigns to a province durring infantry. if kakita hideo assigns opposing the dragon does (he/she) die from 0 chi or what happens? acording to samury rules please :p
  Chuda Rintaro Force/Chi: 3 / 3 Ho/Co/PH: - / 7 / 0 Spider Clan. Shugenja. Shadowlands. Open: Target another player's Personality: After each time he assigns this turn, he suffers -2F/-1C and gains the Shadowlands keyword (until the end of the turn).
  Obsidian Dragon Force/Chi: 6 / 4 Ho/Co/PH: - / 10 / 0 Nonhuman. Dragon. Shugenja. Cavalry. Unique. Can not attach Items or Followers. Non-Unique Personalities have a Force and Chi penalty equal to their own Personal Honor while they oppose Obsidian Dragon; this will not reduce Chi below 1.
  Kakita Hideo Force/Chi: 1 / 3 Ho/Co/PH: 0 / 4 / 3 Crane Clan. Samurai. Duelist.
  A: The Shadow Dragon's effect kicks in as soon as someone is opposed to him. That'll typically be considered to happen prior to any triggered effect or Reaction that is timed "after" whatever event transpired.
  So in this case the Crane Samurai would assign and upon assignment he would be at 1 Chi. After that, the Chuda's curse would then trigger, afflicting him with a fatal Chi penalty. Martin Lund, "timing affter assigne vs while opposed!", 30 Jul 2007
• Q: Hello all.
  I couldn't find anything in the rules about this:
  Suppose that I have an Item attached to one of my personalities. Let's say that I have a Daruma on a Hida guy. I also have Obsidian Dragon out. Obsidian Dragon states that "He can not attach items or followers". Since transferring is not attaching, can I transfer Daruma from the Hida guy to the Obsidian dragon, bypassing his non-attachment restriction?
  Does the same thing work (if it works) with followers that have an honor requirement that the guy who are about to be transferred does not meet (for instance Brothers in arms to a dishonored personality?)
  Thanks for the time.
  Edit: Page 32 of the new rulebook states that you can only share attachments with guys that can legally equip it. So I think that this pretty much covers my question. However, I would like an official answer, even to something that obvious. So can I transfer an item to Obsidian Dragon?
  A: No, for stated reasons. Zen Faulkes, "Transferring Items and Followers", 30 Jul 2007
• Q: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59728
  With this ruling, are you stating the Obsidian Dragon's trait can be added to by other effects to reduce personalities' chi to 0?
  Example:
  If the Obsidian Dragon were facing Doji Ayano, she would have 1C (4-4 min 1). Could I then reduce her chi by 1 via a number of methods (Adieko, Kyuden Warasuremono) to destroy her?
  A: [quote="Mirumoto_Ryudo](Can) the Obsidian Dragon's trait can be added to by other effects to reduce personalities' chi to 0?[/quote] Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon", 29 Jul 2007
• Q: To get a stat's current value at any given time, do steps A through C, below:
  A: Apply all current bonuses and penalties.
  B: If the total is below 0, treat it as 0. (Does not apply to Family Honor, Honor Requirements, and stats with a + or – sign such as an Item’s Force and Chi stats.)
  A: Note that the Obsidian Dragon's effect does not impose a minimum value on Ayano's Chi. It only limits its own effect, as noted here. Martin Lund, "Obsidian Dragon plus Wounded in Battle", 27 Jul 2007
• Q: Restrictions on single effects such as “This cannot raise his Force above 3” do not impose a maximum or minimum on other effects.
  A: So you've got Doji Ayano with -1 Chi, treated as 0 Chi, who can't die due to having 0 Chi.
  After the Resolution Segment, things will be different. Unless something very strange happens, either Ayano or the Obsidian Dragon will be sent home, and the penalty she was receiving with end. She'll be at 2 Chi (4 Printed - 2 from Wounded in Battle). Then the battle will be considered to have ended and her protection from dying from 0 Chi will expire, as per the card text on Wounded in Battle. Of course, she does not have 0 Chi anymore, so she won't have to worry about that.
  Now if she hadn't been a Samurai, Wounded in Battle wouldn't have protected her during the Battle, and she'd have died immediately after receiving the -2 Chi from Wounded in Battle. Martin Lund, "Obsidian Dragon plus Wounded in Battle", 27 Jul 2007
• Q: Could it occur like this: Kyoso no oni ex0 enters, Obsidian Dragon enters, Kyoso ex3 enters (sac Kyoso ex0, trigger Kyoso ex3 effect destroying a pers. in the non-current battle's army), Akuma enters (sac Rightmost province creating null field), first battle resolves within null field, start second battle?
  A: No.
  You have Personalities entering consecutively.
  The Resolution segment of the battle is aborted due Province destruction. Zen Faulkes, "Complex Imbue Chi/Kyoso/Akuma Question", 28 Jun 2007
• Q: Unaligned Creature • Dragon • Shugenja • Cavalry • Unique
  Personalities opposing Obsidian Dragon have a Force and Chi penalty equal to their Personal Honor, to a minimum of 1C.'
  I've lost track of what counts as Smart Card issues, and thus no longer matters. So my question is, "If the Obsidian Dragon is facing an army of opposing personalities with PH greater than or equal to their Chi, they will all be at 1C. If he plays Mark of the Taint, or any kind of Chi Penalty, does his trait keep them alive or did the trait set them all to 1C and the new action kills them?"
  Thanks.
  A: Rules Archive, Bonuses and Penalties: "When an effect creates a minimum or maximum, it applies to all subsequent bonuses and penalties as long as the effect lasts." Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon and Additional Chi Penalties", 8 Jun 2007
• Q: I have three personality, each with 3F / 3C and 3PH. My personalities oppose Obsidian Dragon, all my Personalities will now be 0F/1C correct?
  A: Yes. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon and Penalty while opposing", 27 May 2007
• Q: If I dishonored one of my personality, does that mean my personality becomes a 3F/3C/0PH or is still 0f/1C/0PH?
  A: Former. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon and Penalty while opposing", 27 May 2007
• Q: (I)f obsidian dragon still opposes me, and he played Mark of the Taint, (d)oes my personality die? or are they protected by Obsidian dragon's clause of -1C minimum?
  A: Rules Archive, Bonuses and Penalties: "When an effect creates a minimum or maximum, it applies to all subsequent bonuses and penalties as long as the effect lasts." Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon and Penalty while opposing", 27 May 2007
• Q: What happens when I remove obsidian dragon from battle? Will my personalities get back to 3F/3C? or does it still remain at 0F/1C?
  A: Former. Zen Faulkes, "Obsidian Dragon and Penalty while opposing", 27 May 2007