Playing With Madness

Legend of the Five Rings card from The Fall of Otosan Uchi

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Keywords

Kiho, Maho

Card Text

Limited: Bow your performing Shugenja: Permanently give him +2F/+2C, Shadowlands, and Bloodspeaker, and permanently remove all his abilities. Until the game ends, any Spell or Kiho action he performs is considered Maho. Lose 2 Honor.

Focus Value

1

Legality

Four Winds (Gold), Rain of Blood (Diamond)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rulings

• Bowing your Shugenja is a cost. [JA, 21 February 2003] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 58
• Iuchiban Sensei may straighten a Personality who gained the Bloodspeaker trait while casting this kiho. [ML, 11 October 2004] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 58

Rules Q&A

• Q: If Kinuye exp uses her trait to cast Playing With Madness "as if she were a Shugenja", is she considered to be a Shugenja in *all* senses while she is casting it? For instance, would all her abilities be temporarily considered to be innate abilities, and thus be permanently lost (as per the text of Playing With Madness)?
  A: Yes. Casting constitutes taking the Action of a Spell or Kiho, and includes the process of resolving that Action's effects. While resolving those effects, Kinuye is a Shugenja - period. All her abilities are "innate abilities" and are lost due to Playing With Madness's effects. Martin Lund, "Rules for 21 December 2004", 27 Dec 2004
• Q: Your Rules for Wednesday, October 6, 2004
  * * * * * * * * * *
  I think your answer is wrong.
  * An action is successfully performed after all costs are paid and giving other players the opportunity to perform Reactions to it. [JA, 26 April 2002]
  The trigger time for Iuchiban Sensei's Reaction is as described in this ruling: after costs are paid, but before any effects resolve. "After the action has resolved" is too late to take an "after a Personality performs an action" reaction.
  A: [MARTY] You're wrong on an important count, there are TWO conditions to using Iuchiban Sensei. Until you have the Bloodspeaker Trait, only ONE condition is met, so the Reaction Trigger is not valid yet. Hence you haven't passed your opportunity to take the Reaction.
  Once you acquire the Bloodspeaker Trait from Playing With Madness, both conditions are met and the following are all now true:
  1.) A Bloodspeaker Personality is Performing a Maho Action (you're Performing while all immediate effects of the action resolve)
  2.) The Action is considered to be "Performed" (legally targeted, paid for)
  3.) You have not already moved past the timing window of opportunity to React to 1 & 2 being true at the same time. (all players passing on Reactions)
  You must then immediately respond to this trigger with Iuchiban Sensei's Reaction, or not at all.
  - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey Martin Lund, "Rules for 12 October 2004", 19 Oct 2004
• Q: can the practioner of madness who was not a Bloodspeaker prior to the Kiho be straightened by Iuchiban Sensei. i think, yes. since the reaction on Iuchiban Sensei is decidedly after the action has resolved, at which point, the personality is a Bloodspeark who has just performed a Maho action.
  A: Iuchiban Sensei says, "Reaction: Once per turn, after a Bloodspeaker Personality performs a Maho action straighten him."
  Playing with Madness says, "Kiho Maho Limited: Bow one of your Shugenja. That Shugenja permanently gains +2F/+2C and the Shadowlands and Bloodspeaker traits, and permanently loses all current innate abilities."
  OK, bear with me here. This one is a little complicated in the explanation. If you don't want the rules base behind it, but just the end result, skip down to the part I put in Asterisks * *.
  First point: The Reaction on Iuchiban Sensei is not decidedly after the action has resolved. "Performed" has two criteria that must be met before it is considered to be true:
  1.) The personality is considered to be "Performing" the Action as per the criteria on page 71 of the Diamond Edition Rulebook.
  2.) It is after the action is properly Targeted and its Costs are paid, but before any Effects resolve.
  If this case, Playing With Madness is "Performed" at the same time it is considered "Cast" and "Played" - before any Effects resolve, but after all costs are paid.
  Second point: You are still "casting" or "performing" through the whole time of resolving all the immediate effects of the Action. This is why effects that give you a stat bonus while casting a Spell or Kiho continue are useful - if you have +2C while casting a Kiho (say with "Blessed Dojo"), you have +2C through the whole duel effect created by the "Facing Your Devils" Kiho. It is also why you keep "Monk" or "Shugenja" status all through the casting when using Hitomi Dojo or Bloodspeaker Sanctum.
  Third point: Reactions have to be taken - immediately - upon coming to their trigger, or not at all. For example, when your opponent's Attack Phase ends, you must IMMEDIATELY play "Retribution" in response, or pass on your opportunity to React to that trigger for good. You can't, for instance, wait until your next Dynasty Phase or some other arbitrary point in time and THEN play "Retribution."
  Now, all three of these points come together in how this play works out.
  If your Personality were - already - a Bloodspeaker, the trigger for Iuchiban Sensei would be after the Action was successfully paid for, before any effects were generated. You would have to use Iuchiban Sensei then or not at all.
  However, since your Personality is not a Bloodspeaker until that effect of Playing with Madness resolves, you don't have a valid trigger for the Reaction until that point. * Once your Personality gains the Bloodspeaker trait (and at the same time he's lost all his innate abilities, received +2/+2, and Shadowlands), you've met the Trigger for Iuchiban Sensei: you have a Bloodspeaker Personality who is Performing a Maho Action, and the Action is considered successfuly played. You must then immediately use Iuchiban Sensei to straighten him, or decline to use it at all. *
  Keep in mind, this only works because the Shugenja gained the Bloodspeaker Trait while still performing the Maho Action. If the Shugenja cast a different Maho Kiho, finished resolving its immediate effects, and then afterwards gained the Bloodspeaker trait somehow, you could not straighten him - because he was never both Performing Maho and a Bloodspeaker at the same time. Martin Lund, "Rules for 6 October 2004", 11 Oct 2004
• Q: If I bow a Goblin Wizard to use the Kiho Playing with Madness, may I use Iuchiban Sensei to straighten the peep?
  Is a Maho Action considered performed before or after it resolves? In other words, does the Goblin Wizard become a Bloodspeaker in time to use the Sensei's Reaction?
  A: "After taking / casting / playing / performing" all normally happen as soon as the Action is considered a successful play, with is after all Costs are paid and Reactions to such payment are made, but before the Action produces any effects, including the effect of making your card a Bloodspeaker Personality.
  No Dice. Martin Lund, "Rules for 9 September 2004", 13 Sep 2004
• Q: I announce that I'm going to play the kiho [Playing with Madness] Bow Bloodspeakers Sanctum to allow Kinuye to cast the kiho as if she was a shugenja.
  Are any kihos cast after this action by Kinuye eligiable to gain the maho trait since Kinuye will no longer be a shugenja?
  A: Whether or not she is a shugenja after Playing With Madness is resolved is irrelevent. The effects of gaining +2/+2, Bloodspeaker, Shadowlands, and the Kiho = Maho are all permanent effects with no other conditions or durations attached to them. Martin Lund, "Rules for 5 July 2004", 7 Jul 2004
• Q: Chiang Tsu has Playing With Madness cast by him after he is enabled to by Bloodspeaker Sanctum. Does he lose his ability since he is treated as a Shugenja for the purpose of casting the Kiho, or does the Innate Ability definition only affect cards that are actually Shugenja?
  Relevant cards (Chiang Tsu was just an example of a non-Shugenja with an Ability)
  Bloodspeaker Sanctum 2g Bow to produce 2 gold. Maho Reaction: Before you cast a Kiho, bow Bloodspeaker Sanctum to allow one of your Personalities to cast the Kiho as if he were a Shugenja. Permanently give thet Personality the Bloodspeaker trait.
  Playing With Madness 0g, 1f Kiho Maho Limited: Bow one of your Shugenja. That shugenja permanently gains +2F/+2C and the Shadowlands and Bloodspeaker Traits, and permanently loses all current Innate Abilities. Any Spell or Kiho cast by the Shugenja for the rest of this game gans the Maho trait. Lose 2 Honor.
  A: Wow, there's never a dull moment around here, is there?
  Yup, he's casting the Kiho as if he were a Shugenja. That makes all his abilities "Current Innate Abilities" while casting the Kiho. That means Playing with Madness will erase them permanently. Pretty vile stuff. I imagine that you could use this with Show of Good Faith to make some sort of evil juju. Martin Lund, "Rules for 4 April 2004", 6 Apr 2004
• Q: For the purposes of House of Tao, would casting this Kiho be considered bringing a shadowlands card into play?
  Playing With Madness Kiho Maho Limited: Bow one of your Shugenja. That Shugenja permanently gains +2F/+2C and the Shadowlands and Bloodspeaker traits, and permanently loses all current innate abilities. Any Spell or Kiho cast by that Shugenja for the rest of the game gains the Maho trait. Lose 2 Honor
  A: No. You are bringing a Maho Kiho card into play by playing the Kiho. Giving the Shadowlands trait to a card already in play does not count as playing one. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 16 Feb. 204", 18 Feb 2004
• Q: I have a question for Jeff.
  Some persons I know have a particular interpretation of this 3 cards : Asako Kinuye - Playing With Madness (PWM) and Bloodspeaker Sanctum.
  The problem is they think that PWM can be played with Kinuye with the use of the Sanctum.
  A: It can. PWM is a Maho Kiho. Kinuye does not need to bow when casting Maho Kihos. It can only be cast by Shugenja, though, which Bloodspeaker Sanctum provides. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 10 Feb. 2004", 11 Feb 2004
• Q: Ok, got a rules question, ony I have a shugenja in play, Test of the Jade Champion resolves, my shugenja is now the jade champ and can cast kihos once per turn without bowing. I know want to cast Playing with Madness, do I bow or not?
  Yes. It's a cost. (Yes, it's not written correctly.)
  Why does he have to bow if he is the Jade champion?
  A: Um...because I was typing after a hard day and was rushing to go home?
  The answer, of course, is that he does NOT have to bow. Because it's a cost. Sigh. Jeff Alexander, "post for 24 February 2003", 25 Feb 2003
• Q: Ok, got a rules question, ony I have a shugenja in play, Test of the Jade Champion resolves, my shugenja is now the jade champ and can cast kihos once per turn without bowing. I know want to cast Playing with Madness, do I bow or not?
  A: Yes. It's a cost. (Yes, it's not written correctly.) Jeff Alexander, "post for 21 February 2003", 22 Feb 2003
• Q: When a Shugenja has used Playing with Madness: Kiho Maho Limited: Bow one of your Shugenja. That Shugenja permanently gains +2F/+2C and the Shadowlands and Bloodspeaker traits, and permanently loses all current innate abilities. Any Spell or Kiho cast by that Shugenja for the rest of the game gains the Maho trait. Lose 2 Honor.
  After said Mad Shugenja sasts say Walk the Way, can that player put the spell back in their hand from the decard pile using Chuda Retainer or is it so long as the Spell is in play it has the Maho trait?
  A: Since the card does not say otherwise, the trait is gained for the default duration: until the end of the turn. A Chuda Retainer would need to be used in the same turn -- after that, the Spell in the discard pile no longer has the Maho trait. Jeff Alexander, "post for 20 February 2003", 21 Feb 2003
• Q: So during this turn I pull up 'Using the Wish'. Since Hitaka has the highest force, and as much as I love him I do have two in play and my Shadowlands opponet isn't going to play any Jade cards. I play the card on the version of him I did not play my Playing with Madness on. This brings him up to being a 7/10 personality. But, he'll be dead next turn.
  A: Check.
  So I use the Anvil of Despair to take him out of play and Jeff Alexander, "post for 14 February 2003", 18 Feb 2003