Seppun Sensei

Legend of the Five Rings card from Fire & Shadow

Card Type

Sensei

Province Strength

+0

Gold Production

+0

Starting Family Honor

+0

Keywords

All Clans

Card Text

You may not take actions whose effects will or might cause other players to lose Honor.
Your Honor losses and gains will not be negated, substituted, given to another player, copied, or numerically changed (a direct change to the numerals on a card does not count as a numerical change to the effect of an Honor loss or gain).

Focus Value

2

Legality

Hidden Emperor (Jade)

Erratum

Errata issued via AEG Rules Forum in 2012 to clarify the scope of "changed".

Deck

Pre-Game

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Should read, "... voluntarily changed." [Erratum] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• Prevents effects that would make any aspect of honor gain / loss different from what would happen if it were allowed to occur with no voluntary interference. [Reversal; JA, 24 June 2000] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• Prevents effects occurring after the honor gain or loss, including any and all Reactions triggered by an honor gain or loss (e.g., Hantei Naseru). Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• Does not prevent ongoing effects which change honor losses automatically (e.g., Deeds, Not Words). Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• Reactions (and samurai committing seppuku) responding to an honor gain or loss may still be played, but the honor gain or loss is unaffected. [JA, ZF, 31 May 2000] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• Does not affect the initial calculation of a gain or loss. [DW, April 2000] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• Does not prevent honor-producing holdings from having their numbers changed (e.g., Blessing Upon the Lands). [ZF, May 2000] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• You can take actions that might cause an honor loss (e.g., Iaijutsu Challenge). Treat "would" as "will." [ZF, April 2000] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 143
• Q: One last question about Seppun Sensei: Can I play Iaijutsu Challenge when I use that Sensei? A: Yes. Treat "would" as "will." Iaijutsu Challenge doesn't always cause an Honor loss, so Seppun Sensei players can use it. The Imperial Herald, Issue 16, p. 12

Rules Q&A

• Q: After a brief debate with a fellow player on this issue, I decided to ask for clarification on the following issues as well. Thanks for the previous replies.
  Can a player who has Seppun Sensei in play take the action of Kitsuki Mizuochi Exp. when it is known that the top card of a deck is a Kolat/Ninja/Assassin card?
  A: If the top card is face-up and visible to all players, Mizuochi can't be used. He can be used if the top card is face-down, even if every player saw it earlier and it hasn't moved. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 17 Feb. 2004", 19 Feb 2004
• Q: E.g.: A Personality whose player has a Seppun Sensei in play issues an Iaijutsu Challenge to another personality. She refuses. Will her player lose 7 Honor or would the Sensei prevent it somehow (cancelling the action, negating the Honor loss etc.)?
  A: The challenged Personality's player will lose 7 Honor. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 17 Feb. 2004", 19 Feb 2004
• Q: Can a player who has Seppun Sensei in play take the action of Kitsuki Mizuochi Exp. when it is unknown if the top card of a deck is a Kolat, Ninja, or Assassin card or not?
  A: Yes. Jeff Alexander, "rules for 16 Feb. 204", 18 Feb 2004
• Q: If I am playing with Seppun Sensei and I play Rise from the Ashes after winning some honor, does Rise negate that honor gain?
  A: Seppun Sensei will prevent Rise From the Ashes from negating your Honor gains from earlier in the turn, but it will not prevent the lingering effect of preventing players from gaining Honor for the rest of the turn, as those changes are automatic. Seppun Sensei only applies to voluntary changes. Jeff Alexander, "post for 15 March 2002", 16 Mar 2002
• Q: With the new wording of "In time of War", "Seppun Sensei" has nothing to do with this event, does it? If I have "Seppun Sensei" in play and an "In time of War" comes up in a province, I won't be able to go further than 5 points of honor more than what I had at the beginning of my turn.
  A: Correct. Jeff Alexander, "post for 2 October 2001", 2 Oct 2001
• Q: A ruling was issued shortly after the release of Seppun Sensei regarding the card "Lies, Lies, Lies"
  the essentials of the rule were that the two effects of the card(the Honor gain of 8, then the concurrent loss to starting family honor) could not be separated because while it was 2 separate effects, they were in a chain that could not be severed. Thus, you cannot gain the 8, then cancel the concurrent loss. ( I understand that the primary reason for this was to prevent the abuse of Lies...) But, it does make logical sense, and is consistent, and I think it should be considered across the board for actions.
  A: That was a purely play balance-related ruling. Treating LLL as a separate gain and loss opens wide holes for abuse. You don't even need Seppun Sensei, really. You can just Favor the loss away, or Wind's Truth it to someone else. It's not a matter of it being a chain of effects, per se. Jeff Alexander, "Rulings for 12-14 March 2001", 22 Mar 2001
• Q: So your TO is wrong, the favor cannot and never could be used to cancel an Honor loss under Seppun Sensei.
  My TO maybe wrong... but my TO is /always/ right.. went it really counts... at the tournament. And without anything official in the rulings, I've go no way to convince him otherwise.
  A: Preventing a loss of honor is a change. Even if the Favor is used to do it. Jeff Alexander, "Rulings for early March, 2001", 14 Mar 2001
• Q: I would like to have someone post on this mail list the effect cards have or dont have against Seppun Sensei as I am totally lost.
  A: In a nutshell: Seppun Sensei applies to any Reaction to a gain or loss prevents or negates it, changes the amount, changes which player experiences it, or changes it from one to the other. It also applies to Samurai seppuku. It does not apply to ongoing effects which do any of the above automatically. Jeff Alexander, "Rulings for 19 February 2001", 24 Feb 2001
• Q: This has probably been answered before, so I apologize in advance. I checked the rulings archive on Zen's page and did not see the answer under Seppun Sensei that made sense to me (sorry I'm slow).
  My opponent uses the Seppun Sensei and controls the favor.
  He plays His Most Favored on a personality.
  I kill the personality. Can my opponent use the Imperial Favor to negate the loss? Why or why not? Can this reasoning be added to the archive?
  A: Your opponent cannot. Preventing/negating an honor loss is a change. Jeff Alexander, "Rulings for 12-13 February 2001", 16 Feb 2001
• Q: I was looking over the archive and read the following on Seppun Sensei:
  If an entire action is cancelled, and not just the honor gain / loss portion of it, you do not keep any honor you would have gained / lost. [JA, 24 June 2000]
  This kind of goes to the cancelled/negated thing. If the effects of an action are negated, then does the honor loss/gain still occur?
  A: First off, actions are never negated, only canceled. Anyone who brings up Flee the Darkness will automatically get grim-fwapped.
  It is possible, however, for some effects of an action to be negated. This is not the same thing as canceling the action, even if all effects of the action are negated (i.e., the action only has one effect, and that effect is negated).
  So, I guess my question to you is, was the honor gain/loss part of the action negated in whatever example you're asking about? In other words, you really have to give me something more to work with. If, in some hypothetical situation, all effects (including the honor gain) were negated, then no, the honor gain would never occur. If the honor gain were not negated, then it would occur. If the action is canceled, then it wouldn't. Could you be more specific? Vaughn Derderian, "Rules for February 2nd", 3 Feb 2001
• Q: 2) Is it possible for a player using Seppun Sensei to play Defend your Honor against any honor loss?
  A: Well...kinda. They can play the card, and even issue the challenge, but the honor loss will not be canceled. You cannot voluntarily change any of your honor losses when you are playing Seppun Sensei. Vaughn Derderian, "Rules for January 10th", 10 Jan 2001
• Q: In reference to this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=96209
  Sorry to repost the question, but I am under the impression that several things changed with the Oracle of the Void's texts. Namely, negation seems to be unaffected by Seppun Sensei, since it is not the same as decreasing the gain or loss. So I think answers 1, 3 and 4 should be reversed. Am I wrong?
  Seppun Sensei (Oracle of the Void's text) [...] Your Honor losses and gains will not be increased, decreased, given to another player, or copied.
  Darling of the Season (Oracle of the Void's text) Until the game ends, after a player has lost 5 total points of Honor from other players' cards' effects in one turn, counting incremental portions of losses, negate further points lost from such effects that turn, including partially negating portions of losses before they would make a player lose more than 5 points.
  Deeds, not Words (Oracle of the Void's text) [...] Sources besides these which cause him to gain Honor have their gains negated and cause him an Honor loss equal to the amount negated.
  A: After discussion, the relevant trait of Seppun Sensei has been changed to: Your Honor losses and gains will not be negated, substituted, increased, decreased, given to another player, or copied. Alex Jones, "Re: Seppun Sensei vs. negation, maximum and substitution", 2 Mar 2012
• Q: I have Seppun Sensei in play. 1) Does it prevent me from using effects that would negate my Honor loss (such as Hantei Naseru's first reaction)? 2) If Hantei Naseru's second reaction is activated, will I be unaffected by the honor gain reduction? 3) If Darling of the Season has resolved and I suffer a single 7-point Honor loss (such as Shame), will I lose 5 or 7 honor? 4) If my opponent plays Deeds not Words, will my relevant honor gains become losses?
  Seppun Sensei [...] Your Honor losses and gains cannot be changed, redirected or copied.
  Darling of the Season Until the end of the game, each player cannot lose more than 5 points of Honor in total from other players' cards in a single turn.
  Hantei Naseru Political Reaction: When any player loses Honor, discard the Imperial Favor to negate the loss. Political Reaction: When your turn begins, discard the Imperial Favor as a cost for this action and name a phase. Until your next turn begins, lower all Honor gains to half, rounded down, during that phase of each player's turn. [...]
  Deeds, not Words Political Open: Target a player. Until the end of the turn, that player gains 1 Honor in addition to any other award when one of his Personalities wins a duel, and 1 additional Honor for each opposing card destroyed in the Resolution Segment of battle. Honor gains from any other source are counted as losses instead of gains for that player.
  A: Please note that any and all of these rulings may change once the Oracle of the Void is released - in particular #4, which is a ruling I remember from playing at the time but could easily be changed with the updated wordings on Seppun Sensei and Deeds, Not Words.
  1. You may use abilities such as Hantei Naseru's first reaction, but the Sensei will prevent them from applying.
  2. You will be unaffected by the honor gain reduction from Hantei Naseru's second reaction.
  3. Darling of the Season will attempt to partially negate the honor gain, and Seppun Sensei will cause this partial negation to fail.
  4. Edit: It's been pointed out to me that the Gold Edition MRP of Deeds, Not Words uses a wording that creates a substitution effect, which Seppun Sensei will stop. Jon Palmer, "Seppun Sensei vs. negation, maximum and substitution", 13 Feb 2012