Battle of Shallow Waters

Legend of the Five Rings card from The War of Spirits

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Keywords

Terrain, Water

Card Text

Before this battle's resolution: Negate all current Force penalties upon cards at the current battlefield.
Battle: If there are no Terrains at the current battlefield: Put this card into play there.

Focus Value

1

Legality

Four Winds (Gold), Hidden Emperor (Jade)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rules Q&A

• Q: ISOTF changes a number to a lower number. That makes it a penalty. However, the penalty is given to force _bonuses_ (card text) rather than to cards _receiving_ bonuses.
  If Battle of Shallow Waters read "Negate all force penalties in this battle" then I imagine it would work against ISOTF. But since it only negates penalties for _cards_ in this battle, it doesn't work on penalties for _bonuses_.
  A: Woah, woah, woah! STOP! I do not want to go down that road. I don't want there to be different rules for bonuses, and for penalties to bonuses, and for bonuses to bonuses to penalties, and for... Things will get insane that way.
  There are bonuses, and there are penalties, and that's it. As far as those terms work within the L5R CCG, it doesn't go any deeper.
  In Search of the Future causes a card number (current Force) to drop by reducing a bonus. [card text] That means it is NOT creating a penalty. [FOU rulesheet] That means Battlefield of Shallow Waters does not negate the change. [card text] And that's the real basis for the ruling. Jeff Alexander, "post for 7 March 2003", 8 Mar 2003
• Q: A player asked if Battle of Shallow Waters (Battle Terrain: Negate all Force Penalties for cards in this battle.)
  would negate the effects of In Search of the Future.
  A: It would not.
  In Search of the Future "lower[s] all current Force bonuses for cards in this battle to 0, except bonuses to or from cards attached to them." [card text]
  According to the FOU rulesheet,
  ] Any time the current number on a card changes from one value to ] a higher value, that number is receiving a "bonus" -- unless ] the reason for the increase is a penalty expired or an existing ] penalty or bonus changed. Likewise, if a number decreases, it's ] receiving a "penalty."
  Since In Search of the Future causes card Forces to drop by reducing some bonuses they're receiving to 0, those drops are not the results of a penalty. Battle of Shallow Waters has no effect on that reduction. Jeff Alexander, "post for 6 March 2003", 7 Mar 2003
• Q: Actually it was recently clarified that any effect which lowers the current (stat) is a penalty, and specifically that apples to In Search of the FUture and Battle of Shallow Waters.
  A: Clarified by whom? The only thing I can recall saying recently is this:
  "a brand new increase in Force IS a bonus, by definition. [GE p. 31] Note that a number is not considered to be receiving a new bonus if it's only increasing because an existing bonus got larger or an existing penalty got smaller or ended. [FOU rulesheet] "
  which lists an important exception that your definition omits. Since "penalty" is defined the same way "bonus" is, just with all the signs reversed [FOU rulesheet], I have to say the source of your clarification got it wrong. Jeff Alexander, "post for 6 March 2003", 7 Mar 2003
• Q: If I attack, boost my people, get hit with 'In Search of the Future', and then play 'Battle of Shallow Waters', what is the end result: are my boosts still negated, or does the ISotF get get whacked by the terrain?
  A: A reduction of a bonus is not a penalty. [BB rulesheet] In Search of the Future does not create a penalty. Battle of Shallow Waters won't affect its reduction. Jeff Alexander, "post for 28 October 2002", 29 Oct 2002
• Q: Quick question:
  (In Search of the Future)Battle: Lower all current force bonuses for cards in this battle to 0, expect bonuses to or from cards attached to them.
  (Battle of Shallow Waters) Battle Terrain: Negate all force penalties for cards in this battle.
  Question being....is the force reduction cause by In Search of the future a force penalty seeing it dont negate force bonuses just "penalizes" them and if so does the terrain negate it?
  A: The reduction or negation of a bonus is not a penalty [DA rulebook p. 31]. The Terrain does not counter In Search... Jeff Alexander, "post for 30 May 2002", 31 May 2002
• Q: Example: Gohei attacks. He is 3 force while attacking. The defending player plays Uncertainty (-2,-2). The attacking player drops a Battle of Shallow Waters. At resolution Gohei has 1 force, because his force bonus was reduced, he was not assigned a force penalty.
  A: Not true. BSW will negate the penalty from Uncertainty, because regardless of the fact that Gohei has a bonus and a penalty in equal measure, he is under the effect of something that explicitly reduces his force. BSW negates it, and Gohei has 3 force. Vaughn Derderian, "Rules for November 13th", 13 Nov 2000
• Q: Example: Ikoma Gunjin attacks, and uses his Tactician ability for something else. He Charges, giving him 3 force. The defending player drop another Uncertainty (-2,-2). The attacking player plays a Battle of Shallow Waters. At resolution Gunjin has 1 force, because his force bonus was reduced, he was not assigned a force penalty.
  A: Hey, this is the same example as the last one! Anyways, assigning a penalty when someone has a bonus in effect is *not* the same thing as modifiying that bonus. If there is a positive effect in place that reduces someones force explicitly, then BSW will cancel it. Gunjin has 3 force. Vaughn Derderian, "Rules for November 13th", 13 Nov 2000
• Q: Example: Utaku Kamoko (3/2) attacks. Normally, she'd be 4 force while attacking. She Charges, Destiny has no Secrets, and does a little dance. Now she's 8 force. The defending player plays In Search of the Future. The he plays an Uncertainty on her. The attacker drops a Battle of Shallow Waters. At resolution, her force is 3, because the Uncertainty here was a Force Penalty that dropped her below her printed force.
  A: Correct. Vaughn Derderian, "Rules for November 13th", 13 Nov 2000
• Q: What happens if the Order of things is changed? What if Utaku Kamoko attacks, has 4 force, Charges, gets Uncertainty played on her, a Battle of Shallow Waters is dropped, gets Destiny has no secrets playeed on her, and then the ISotF gets played? What is her force at resolution?
  A: 3. The ISotF reduces all of her bonuses to zero, and then the BSW cancels the Uncertainty. Vaughn Derderian, "Rules for November 13th", 13 Nov 2000