Three-Stone River

Legend of the Five Rings card from Samurai Edition, Diamond Edition, Lotus Edition, The War of Spirits, Tomorrow, Enemy of My Enemy, Drums of War

Card Type

Strategy

Gold Cost

0

Keywords

Terrain

Card Text

Before this battle's resolution: Reduce the Force of each Personality at this battlefield to equal the Force of his highest-Force Follower, or to 1 if he has no Followers.
Battle: If there are no Terrains at the current battlefield: Put this card into play there.

Focus Value

1

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Four Winds (Gold), Hidden Emperor (Jade), Race for the Throne (Samurai), Rain of Blood (Diamond)

Deck

Fate

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, "Three-Stone River 0G 1FV Terrain Battle: Before this battle’s resolution, reduce the Force of each Personality at this battlefield to the Force of his highest-Force Follower, or to 1 if he has no Followers." [MRP, Samurai Edition, 25 July 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 164

Rules Q&A

• Q: 2. Personality has bowed 4 F follower attached, and there is Three-Stone River in play. Personality Force is lowered to 4 or 1?
  A: Three-stone reduces everyone with followers to the force of their biggest follower, and everyone without followers to 1. Being bowed does not change the Force of the individual cards, only the total of the unit. A bowed 4F card is still a 4F card. Martin Lund, "Rules for 13 May 2004", 16 May 2004
• Q: If Three-Stone River is in play at a battle in which a 3F Personality has only a *bowed* 4F follower attached, what is the force of that Personality when Three-Stone River resolves?
  A: 3 (Diamond rules, pg. 83). Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 1 December 2003", 1 Dec 2003
• Q: Does Three Stone River raise your force if your personality has lower force than their attached follower?
  A: No. "Lower the force..." (card text). Zen Faulkes, "Rules for 8 November 2003", 8 Nov 2003
• Q: 1. Three Stone River-for the second part of the terrain, involving Personalities w/ Followers attached. If the Follower has MORE Force than the Personality, does the Personality's Force stay the same, or is it set to the Force of the Follower (in other words, can you "lower" a number to a higher number)?
  A: It stays the same. You cannot lower a number to a higher value. Jeff Alexander, "post for 26 May 2003", 29 May 2003
• Q: Three Stone River
  Battle Terrain: Lower to 1 the Force of each Personality in this battle with no Followers. Lower the Force of each Personality in this battle with Followers to the Force of his or her hihest-Force Follower.
  Is this an Inmediate or Delayed terrain?
  A: All Terrains prior to Gold Edition act as Delayed Terrains unless they specifically say they resolve when played. [GE p. 4] Jeff Alexander, "post for 18 February 2003", 19 Feb 2003
• Q: Is the terrain "Three-Stone River" an immediate or delayed terrain?
  A: GE rulebook p. 4:
  "All Terrains printed prior to the Gold Edition set are Delayed unless they say they take effect when played, in which case they're Immediate." Jeff Alexander, "post for 19 November 2002", 20 Nov 2002
• Q: Different question/scenario.
  Terrain: Three Stone River. If it doesn't exclusively state the terrain is Immediate or Delayed, then it's Delayed, right?
  A: Correct. Gold Edition+ rulebook, p. 4. Jeff Alexander, "post for 18 July 2002", 19 Jul 2002
• Q: If Three Stone River is played in a battle, and a personality has a 0F follower only, then they reduce the personalities force to 0F?
  A: Correct. Jeff Alexander, "post for 18 July 2002", 19 Jul 2002
• Q: More on the Immediate Terrain questions: As with Three Stone River (if its immediate)
  A: It's not. Jeff Alexander, "post for 18 July 2002", 19 Jul 2002
• Q: Ok here is the scenario:
  My opponent is attacking my province with a moat attached to it. I defend with a 1 force personality and play Three Stone River. None of his personalities have followers attached.
  Three Stone River Battle Terrain: Lower to 1 the force of each personality in this battle with no followers. Lower the force of each personality in this battle with followers to the force of his or her highest force follower.
  So here is the question, the three stone river would set each personalities force in my scenario to one when the terrain resolves and my understanding of how moat works is that it is a continuous effect so that it would apply after the terrain resolved
  A: Wrong. [AOF rulebook p. 32] Moat applies first, reducing every attacker by 1 as soon as they're assigned. Much later, the terrain sets their Forces directly to 1. That's now their new current Force. You don't apply continuous effects again. You know their Force. It's 1. Three Stone River said so. Jeff Alexander, "post for 11-12 February 2002", 12 Feb 2002
• Q: Timing question: When Three-Stone River has been played during a battle at a province where Moat is attached, which card's effects are applied first during the Resolution Phase? The order can make a big difference when computing the attacker's force.
  A: The Moat applies first, since it began applying as soon as the units were assigned. Jeff Alexander, "post for 30 January 2002", 31 Jan 2002
• Q: Regarding this topic. According to the Comprehensive Rules terrains are an exception from the general rule:
  "If a Terrain leaves play, its ongoing effects end, and its delayed effects will no longer be applied. This is not negation of those effects (that is, even effects that can not be negated will be ended).
  After battle resolution, discard any Terrains in play at the current battlefield. Discarding a Terrain in this way ends its ongoing effects, unless they are delayed to a point in time that has yet to occur, or their duration explicitly lasts beyond the battle resolution. This is not negation of those effects."
  Therefore the effect of Three-Stone River shouldn't last until the end of the turn.
  A: Also, here...
  The ongoing force penalty effects of Three-Stone River end when the card is discarded after battle resolution. Alex Jones, "Terrains", 17 Oct 2008
• Q: IF an attacking army has for example 5 personalities and one has a 2 force follwer. I play three stone, does the other four personalities without the follower go down to 1 force or does every personality drop to 2 force because its the force of the lowest force follower?
  Not sure with the wording thanks.
  A: Three Stone River: Terrain Battle: Before this battle’s resolution, reduce the Force of each Personality at this battlefield to the Force of his highest-Force Follower, or to 1 if he has no Followers.
  The words I've highlighted indicate that each Personality's force is calculated purely by looking at his Followers, not at any other Personality's. If any Personality has no Followers, his force is reduced to 1, regardless of the presence of any Personalities with Followers. Alex Jones, "Three Stone River", 24 Jul 2008
• Q: If I have 1 province remaining, so that my Wandering Budoka has 8 Force, and it is attached to Daigotsu Iemitsu, who has 5 Force, and my opponent plays a Three-Stone River, which of the following occurs?
  A: This one: Zen Faulkes, "Three-Stone River and Wandering Budoka", 29 Apr 2008
• Q: Iemitsu's Force remains 5, since it's not 'reducing' his force to 8
  A: "Reduce" mean "make one number smaller until it is equal," not just "make the numbers equal." Zen Faulkes, "Three-Stone River and Wandering Budoka", 29 Apr 2008
• Q: I've used the search engine and I'm actually surprised that this hasn't come up yet...
  I am attacking with a three force tactician Samurai without any followers in the unit. My opponent plays Three Stone River. I play Determination and then use the tactical ability to discard a card to raise my personalities force by the focus value, lets say four. Assuming we both pass after this, will my samurai's force be 1, 5 or 7 at battle resolution?
  Thank you
  A: Your Samurai's Force would be 1.
  The effect of Three-Stone River is to set your Personality's Force to a value (1, in your example) by giving it a penalty.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#General_rules_about_stats: (Emphasis mine) "Bonuses and penalties are commonly referred to by a mathematical expression such as +1F or -1 Personal Honor. The terms “gain,” “increase” and “give” for bonuses, and “lose,” “reduce” or “suffer” for penalties, are also used..." (and also pertinent is) "...To set a stat to a value, give an appropriate bonus or penalty."
  Determination stops negation of the Tactical Force bonus, but receiving a penalty is not synonymous with negating a bonus. Indeed, the bonus is actually still there, but math is working against it, as seen here (from further down in the above linked section of the CR):
  "To get a stat's current value at any given time, do steps A through C, below:
  A: Apply all current bonuses and penalties. B: If the total is below 0, treat it as 0. (Does not apply to Family Honor, Honor Requirements, and stats with a + or – sign such as an Item’s Force and Chi stats.) C: If the total is less than a minimum or more than a maximum, treat it as the minimum or maximum." Brook Cunningham, "Determination vs Three Stone River", 16 Apr 2008
• Q: how long does the force reduction last from three stone river, does it last to end of turn or just until the end of the resolution of the battle
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_T#Terrain: "After battle resolution, discard any Terrains in play at the current battlefield. Discarding a Terrain in this way ends its ongoing effects, unless they are delayed to a point in time that has yet to occur, or their duration explicitly lasts beyond the battle resolution." Zen Faulkes, "Three-Stone River and Castle Moat", 10 Apr 2008
• Q: Hey all, 1. Player B is attacking Player A's final province with any non-zero number of units 2. Player A has a Castle Moat in play. 3. Player A defends with any non-zero number of units 4. Player A takes the first action as the defender, and plays Three-Stone River. 5. Player B passes, followed by Player A
  Would all units in Player B's army, assuming none had any followers with greater then 1F attached, be reduced to 0? If not, what would their force be?
  Castle Moat: While you have exactly one province, Personalities and Followers attacking you have -1F
  Three-Stone River: Text Terrain Battle: Before this battle’s resolution, reduce the Force of each Personality at this battlefield to the Force of his highest Force Follower, or to 1 if he has no Followers.
  A: Continuous effects (e.g., Castle Moat) will apply before other effects (e.g., Three Stone River). Zen Faulkes, "Three-Stone River and Castle Moat", 10 Apr 2008
• Q: I attack with 4 units without followers in one province. My opponent blocks with one unit and on his chance to play a battle action he plays a Three Stone river. The battle ends, our personalities suffer a force penalty going down to 1 force and the battle concludes with me getting 2 honor from killing him. Then I play Desperate Wager, assigning the same personalities on one battlefield. Will the force of my army still stay down to 1 force per unit, or the terrain's effect will wear off and the force will get to normal again?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_T#Terrain: "If a Terrain leaves play, its effects with a duration end." Penalties are effects with durations. They're gone. Zen Faulkes, "Three Stone River and Desperate Wager", 28 Jan 2008
• Q: Hi there,
  As a followup to my previous question here:
  And in pursuit of further Clarification re: Matsu Wani's posting here
  chrisF said:
  Let's say this hypothetical situation:
  I play Unshakable to play Three-Stone River for its battle action from my discard pile:
  Three-Stone River is a delayed terrain, and I'm playing it for its battle action, which is:
  Battle: Reduce the Force of each Personality at this battlefield to the Force of his highest-Force Follower, or to 1 if he has no Followers.
  However Unshakable states that the card is removed from the game, AFTER that action ends.
  Does that mean that the following is correct?
  1. Unshakable plays Three-Stone River, which as a delayed terrain, does not resolve its battle action until terrains are resolved after the battle actions segment, at which point its battle action takes effect (i.e. force reduction), and then both unshakable and the three-stone river are removed from play?
  Or does it mean:
  2. Unshakable plays Three-Stone River, which as a delayed terrain, does not resolve its battle action immediately, so the battle action does not take effect, and both cards are removed from play?
  Or is the end result completely different?
  Sorry for being so obtuse on this topic. Thanks very much for your help!
  A: The former (1). Zen Faulkes, "Unshakable - Part 2", 15 Feb 2007
• Q: Is there anything that prevents this scenario from happening as I've described?
  A: Not that I can see. Zen Faulkes, "Daidoji Shihei & Three-Stone River", 7 May 2005
• Q: Are the terrain's effects continuous?
  A: No. Zen Faulkes, "Daidoji Shihei & Three-Stone River", 7 May 2005
• Q: Does the fact that the force drop happens to personalities simultaneously mean that the active player (ie the Attacker) gets to choose the order that the penaties are applied?
  A: Irrelevent, because this action always comes after the penalties. Zen Faulkes, "Daidoji Shihei & Three-Stone River", 7 May 2005