Togashi Tsuri

Legend of the Five Rings card from Khan's Defiance, Samurai Edition Banzai

Card Type

Personality

Force

3

Chi

3

Honor Requirement

4

Gold Cost

6

Personal Honor

4

Clan

Dragon

Keywords

Unique, Dragon Clan, Experienced, Monk, Tattooed

Card Text

Battle: Target an enemy Personality: Switch Tsuri's Force or his Chi with the same stat on the target.
Reaction: After a Ring bows: Gain 1 Honor.

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Race for the Throne (Samurai)

Deck

Dynasty

Story

2005 European Championships Top of Clan - Faber Van Kraanen

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, "Togashi Tsuri 3F/3C 5HR 6G 3PH Dragon Clan Monk. Unique. Battle: Once per battle, target an opposing Personality with more Chi than Tsuri: Tsuri copies his Force. Battle: Once per battle, target an opposing Personality with more Force than Tsuri: Tsuri copies his Chi." [MRP, Lotus Edition, 31 October 2005] Rules Archive, August 18, 2007, p. 128

Rules Q&A

• Q: Alright, I'm still confused about this topic. I see it working one of four ways concerning setting a personality's force when he has a penalty that would have made his force lower than zero.
  If a Togashi Tsuri exp had a force penalty of 7 (making his force 0 (-4)) and he tried to set his force to 6, his force bonus would be: a) 6 because his current force is zero, and all penalties that are dragging him below zero are suddenly negated (and yet not removed completely) b) 10 because you have to push through the negative 4 force, they're not gone after all and the math doesn't work otherwise c) 3 because all bonuses and penalties are negated (and cannot be reapplied if they are continuous bonuses such as that of a terrain) and you then set his force d) 6 because his current force is zero, but you don't ignore his force penalty so his current force is now 2
  How I see it currently being ruled is through option "a." So do all of the force penalties now go away that drag him below zero force if he "sets" his force? What happens to his force if you negate a force penalty on him that was dragging him below zero force after his force was set?
  A: Fixed.
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61125 Zen Faulkes, "re: Togashi Tsuri experienced and Penalities", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: RE: This.
  Again, sorry, but there is still life in this horse. From the last answer, above, I think I see now where the misunderstading lies. In my example, nothing is being re-applied in violation of the rule that prohibits it as the answer asserts.
  The rule against it, in that case, refers to applying a bonus twice or more, netting a bonus two or more times in excess of the actual bonus. Example from the CR: "A 0F/3C Personality has a +1C weapon attached. An effect switches the Personality's Force and Chi. The Personality's Force is set to 4F, and Chi is set to 0C. Because bonuses are not reapplied, the Personality is destroyed due to having 0C." If the bonus were re-applied in the Example, it would exist on the Chi AND on the Force at the same time, thus existing twice when it should only exist once.
  In MY example, all bonuses and penalities are only applied once and then stay in effect. The only "re-applying" my example does is performing Step A of the "determining a stat's current value" process twice. It is my understanding that determining a stat's current value by this process is uniform and autonomous each time you perform it, beginning the calculations at the base stat. I think you believe that it starts at the CURRENT stat, however, and this is where our logical paths diverge on "re-applying". I, however, assert that the process logically CANNOT be considered to start at the current stat, because the first time you perform it, there is no current stat yet determined so it MUST start at the base stat, and nowhere in the CR does it say that the process is performed differently depending on when you use it, therefore it always starts with the base stat.
  I hope, finally, we can understand one another. If I am mistaken somehow, please correct my logic.
  Edit: Could've sworn I typed "5" on the subject line. Oops. Fixed.
  A: Fixed.
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61125 Zen Faulkes, "Togashi Tsuri experienced and Penalities 5", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: Togashi Masujiro is bowed. I straighten him via Ring of Air. Can I use his reaction and gain 2 honor?
  A: No. Zen Faulkes, "Bowed Togashi Masujiro and Togashi Tsuri (Experienced)", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: Same scenario but with Togashi Tsuri (Experienced). Can I use his reaction and gain 1 honor?
  A: No.
  1. Announce action.
  2. Select targets.
  3. Pay cost of bowing Ring.
  4. Play Reactions to Ring bowing. Not legal because abilities on bowed cards can't be used.
  5. Resolve effects straightening Personality. Zen Faulkes, "Bowed Togashi Masujiro and Togashi Tsuri (Experienced)", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: His current Force is 0, and I'd like to set it to 7. The linked answer says all I use to base this bonus upon is his current Force (0), so all I do is apply +7F. Okay, let's say I do that. What is his current Force now?
  A: 7F. You're trying to reapply bonuses, which the rules about setting stats to a value tell you not to do.
  http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Gene ... bout_stats: "To set a stat to a value, use the current stat values and do not reapply bonuses that were already affecting the stats."
  And yes, I did tweak the wiki because "appropriate" was vague. But the bit about not reapplying bonuses was already in there.
  (Rolled back the wiki; see below.) Zen Faulkes, "Togashi Tsuri experienced and Penalties 4", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: In the CR, Stats, Setting Stats to a Value, it says: "To set a stat to value, give an appropriate bonus or penalty."
  A: Which means you first have to determine the current value of the stat. And it also says to use the current value of a stat when a stat is called for. Zen Faulkes, "Togashi Tsuri experienced and Penalities 3", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: Just above that section, still under Stats, we have: "To get a stat's current value at any given time, do steps A through C, below:
  A: Which gives you a current value of 0F. So to get to 7F, you give +7F.
  You're trying to use that quoted procedure to determine the value of the bonus -- not the value of the stat. Zen Faulkes, "Togashi Tsuri experienced and Penalities 3", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: RE: This.
  Please let me help cut through some of the asker's verbosity to the root of the problem with the above answer (besides the fatigue ):
  If a Personality's Force is 0 due to rulebook-imposed minimums, but actually has penalties upon it in excess of 0, wouldn't the bonus required to set the card's Force to a number have to overcome all the existing Penalities above and beyond 0?
  Example: A card with base 3F has -8F worth of Penalities upon it (-5F below the 0 minimum). It sets its Force to 7 . The bonus required to achieve this would be +12F, correct?
  A: There used to descriptions of that sort of situation, but it's not in Samurai Edition rules right now. Zen Faulkes, "RE: Togashi Tsuri experienced and Penalities", 1 Sep 2007
• Q: Daigotsu Spider Clan • Clan Champion • Shugenja • Duelist • Shadowlands • Experienced 2 • Unique • Loyal Lose 20 Honor. Personalities opposing Daigotsu have a Force penalty equal to their Personal Honor. Battle/Open: Even if Daigotsu is bowed: Straighten a target Shadowlands Personality and bow or straighten a target Shadowlands card. Force 7 Chi 6 Honor - Gold 12 Phonor 1Okay, let's assume Daigotsu XP 2 attacks a Province. He's alone, but thanks to a Force boost of +2, he has enough Force available to crack said Province like a nutshell, all by himself.
  Togashi Tsuri
  Dragon Clan • Monk • Tattooed • Experienced • Unique Battle: Exchange Tsuri's Force or his Chi with the same stat on a target Personality opposing him. Reaction: After a Ring bows: Gain 1 Honor. Force 3 Chi 3 Honor 4 Gold 6 Phonor 4 Togashi Tsuri now is assigning to defend. As he's opposing Daigotsu, he has a Force penality of his own PH, which is 4. That lowers his Force to 0 (-1).
  So far, so good.
  But now Tsuri is crazy enough to exchange his Force with Daigotsu's.
  What is happening?
  A possibility is that now, Tsuri has Daigotsu's Force of 9 (7+2 Force Boost), while Daigotsu has Tsuri's meek Force of 0 (-1). But shouldn't Tsuri still receive the Force penality for opposing Daigotsu? And does this mean that Tsuri now has a Force of 5 (9 - PH 4 = 5), while Daigotsu still has those meek 0 (-1)? And is this Force Penality even exchanged, or will Daigotsu receive Tsuri's normal Force of 3, after the exchange?
  Help?
  A: Switch current stats and do not reapply bonuses.
  Additional: Just added a section on setting stats to a particular value in the Rules Wiki. http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Gene ... bout_stats Zen Faulkes, "Daigotsu XP 2 and Togashi Tsuri XP", 23 Aug 2007