Bayushi Saya

Legend of the Five Rings card from Samurai Edition, Enemy of My Enemy, Lotus Edition, Celestial Edition 15th Anniversary, Promotional–Samurai

Card Type

Personality

Force

2

Chi

3

Honor Requirement

-

Gold Cost

7

Personal Honor

1

Clan

Scorpion

Keywords

Courtier, Samurai, Scorpion Clan

Card Text

Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.

Legality

Age of Enlightenment (Lotus), Race for the Throne (Samurai), Rain of Blood (Diamond)

Deck

Dynasty

Printings

Rulings

• Erratum: Reads, “Bayushi Saya 2F/3C –HR 7G 1PH Scorpion Clan • Samurai • Courtier. Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.” [MRP, Samurai Edition, 25 July 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 124
• Multiple copies targeting the same Personality do not cause multiple Honor losses, because the Personality is dishonored by the first effect, and thus has zero Personal Honor. [ZF, 29 August 2007] Comprehensive Rules, Samurai Edition, with specific card rulings, final version, May 2009, p. 125

Rules Q&A

• Q: Is it legal to seppuku a samurai/courtier who was targeted by Bayushi Saya's ability after assigning to battle?
  A: Yes, it is legal.
  Your proposed answer to your own question is incorrect; you are losing honor from the delayed effect of Saya's ACTION (which targeted your Personality, fulfilling the Seppuku trigger), not from the assigning itself. Brook Cunningham, "Bayushi Saya and Seppuku after assigning to battle", 5 Mar 2009
• Q: If I Saya my opponent's personality, and then Ambush that personality, does he become dishonored for assigning?
  A: No, for the reasons you underlined.
  In the Ambush, YOU are assigning the Personality, not his controller (as in Saya's text). Brook Cunningham, "Ambush + Bayushi Saya", 18 Jan 2009
• Q: Bayushi Saya Scorpion Clan • Samurai • Courtier Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.
  Saya targets a personality. The personality is targeted by Assigning Blame later in the turn, and becomes dishonorable. The personality's controller has the personality commit seppuku off the honor loss (in order to not have a dishonored person on the table), and the personality is rehonored in the discard pile. The honor loss is not reduced as per Assigning Blame's text.
  Since the personality is now honorable (even though he's dead), can his controller lose honor equal to his current PH and become dishonorable(ly) dead, as per Saya's text?
  A: Seppuku: Reaction: Any number of times per turn, before you lose Honor from an action that targeted or was performed by one of your Courtier or Samurai Personalities: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.
  The seppuku Reaction is not performed by the personality, since it's not an ability on him, it's not an ability on a spell or item, and he's not targeted in the constraints block. Alex Jones, "Saya and seppuku", 18 Sep 2008
• Q: I was unable to find a ruling on this or a closely related ruling. This issue appears to be apart from previous denounced on stage rulings....
  During my action phase, I play Denounced on stage. I subsequently target a 0 honor personality with Bayushi Saya. The 0 honor personality assigns or resolves an action that he performed. Does the personality lose 1 honor, as a result of a 0 honor loss increased by 1 before the player loses honor, or does the personality lose 0 honor, because a 0 honor loss can not occur, and therefore can not be increased.
  Thank you.
  ...
  Bayushi Saya
  Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.
  Denounced on Stage
  Political Limited: Target one of your Artisan or Courtier Personalities: For the rest of the turn, before each time a player loses Honor, increase the loss by 1.
  A: Try this.
  The player loses no honour. Alex Jones, "Bayushi Saya, a 0 PH target, and denounced on stage", 2 Jul 2008
• Q: If I target my opponents personality with my Bayushi Saya, then attach Yajuu No Oni to their personality are they dishonred for performing the equip?
  [Mod edit: Card names fixed in thread title. Please remember to use complete card titles when asking questions. Thanks! -ZF]
  A: Short answer: Yes. You're still using the Equip action, the follower's trait just expands the available range of targets.
  Longer answer: Similar questions about equipping and how it interacts with Bayushi Saya have been answered, and almost always revolve around, "What performs an action?"
  Here's a bit about equipping: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59876 with follow-up commentary here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=65582
  And Marty did a post on sharing and moving things: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59500
  And remember, it never hurts to...
  Specifically the entry on "What performs an action?": http://rules.l5r.com/FAQ#What_performs_an_action.3F Zen Faulkes, "Yajuu no Oni and Bayushi Saya", 22 May 2008
• Q: Reaction: After another player's action resolves that dishonored any of his own Personalities: Destroy one of those target Personalities.
  Taken from:
  viewtopic.php?f=59&t=63779
  To help clarify what the original querant was asking:
  Situation #1: Player A controls Bayushi Saya and uses her Political Open ability to target a Hida Daiyu (for example) controlled by Player B. Player B uses Hida Daiyu's ability to create a follower token, and thus dishonors Hida Daiyu.
  Can Player A react with Doomed Intentions to destroy Hida Daiyu, or was the source of the dishonoring Bayushi Saya's action and not Hida Daiyu's?
  A: Saya's ability is the one that produced the Dishonor effect. You can't play Doomed Intentions. Martin Lund, "Clarification: Bayushi Saya and Doomed Intentions", 13 Dec 2007
• Q: Situation #2: Player A controls Bayushi Saya and uses her Political Open ability to target an Akodo Shunori (for example) controlled by Player B during Player B's turn. Player B assigns Akodo Shunori to attack and thus dishonors Akodo Shunori.
  Can Player A react with Doomed Intentions to destroy Akodo Shunori, or was the source of the dishonoring Bayushi Saya's action and not Player B assigning Akodo Shunori?
  A: Assigning a Unit to Attack isn't even an Action (it has no Battle, Open, Limited, or Reaction designator). You certainly can't play Doomed Intentions. Martin Lund, "Clarification: Bayushi Saya and Doomed Intentions", 13 Dec 2007
• Q: Basically, I believe the issue is that someone somewhere is having a lot of trouble trying to figure out where the source of effects comes from.
  A: The Effect is listing in the Effects Block of the Ability. The card with that Ability is the source of the Effect.
  Moreover, re-read Doomed Intentions. It only cares about the effects of Actions. If the effect came from a non-Action source you couldn't play Doomed Intentions anyway. My personalities can never be hit with Doomed Intentions in response to one of my Opponents playing an Action.
  I know the card is expensive on Ebay and all, but it isn't made out of Gundanium or Pixie Dust. Martin Lund, "Clarification: Bayushi Saya and Doomed Intentions", 13 Dec 2007
• Q: If I target My personality with Bayushi Saya. I then assign him to attack he dishonors himself and I commit Seppuku to lower the loss to one. Can i then react with Kakita Noriko to gain honor equal to his personal honor?
  A: The core question here is "What is 'during a battle'?"
  http://rules.l5r.com/Battles#Choose_Battlefield: "'During a battle' includes both the Combat and Resolution Segments."
  Not assignment. No. Zen Faulkes, "Noriko question", 1 Dec 2007
• Q: Opponent's Bayushi Saya targets my honorable Samurai A,with PH 2, with her ability. I target Samurai A with Honesty using the ability: Bushido Virtue Open: Target one of your Samurai: Gain 1 Honor, or gain Honor equal to his base Personal Honor if your Family Honor is 9 or less.
  What happens?
  A: You gain the honor, then the action is considered resolved and Saya's effect triggers, dishonoring you and causing you an honor loss. Chris Fuchs, "Bayushi Saya and Honesty (clarified)", 19 Oct 2007
• Q: Just confirming I understand this and, more broadly, that I'm applying negation of effects correctly.
  Blade of Guile
  This Personality has 0 Personal Honor, and can neither gain Personal Honor bonuses nor be dishonored.
  Determination
  Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
  From the Comprehensive Rules:
  Conflicting effects
  When effects conflict in their application but not their timing, the later effect takes precedence over the previous effect. Example: If an effect can not be negated (negating anything that attempts to negate it), and is countered by a later negation effect that itself can not be negated, the later effect succeeds in negating the previous effect. [ADDED July 30 2007] [/i]
  If I play Determination on an action that states "Dishonor a target personality", then play that action on someone with the Blade of Guile attached, per the "Conflicting Effects" entry, they will still be dishonored, correct?
  And a more specific case...if I play Determination, then use Bayushi Saya's action on a target personality who has Blade of Guile attached, and that personality subsequently performs an action, will the effect of Determination remain applied, so the personality would be dishonored by the effect of Saya's action?
  Bayushi Saya
  Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.
  [Mod edit: Formatting removed. -ZF]
  A: Determination will allow the effect to trump the "can not be dishonored" trait.
  "Do X. This can not be Negated," trumps, "Negate X," or "Can not X" instructions. Martin Lund, "Determination and Blade of Guile", 12 Sep 2007
• Q: I target one of his personalities with my Bayushi Saya. My opponent uses an ability on the targeted personality, thus dishonoring him. I react with Doomed Intentions, killing his personality. Legal?
  A: No. Nowhere in the effects of the ability he used does it say to Dishonor the Personality. Saya doesn't modify any other card's abilities. The effect is that of her own Action and will not successfully provide a trigger for Doomed Intentions. When Saya's action resolves, it hasn't dishonored anything yet - only set in motion an effect that could later dishonor someone. When someone else's action resolves that triggers Saya's lingering effect, it still isn't that other action's effect that does the Dishonoring. Martin Lund, "Bayushi Saya and Doomed Intentions", 12 Sep 2007
• Q: If a personality causes a honor loss of ZERO can that personality perfrom seppuku?
  A: http://rules.l5r.com/The_Player#Family_Honor: "An Honor gain of 0 points is not considered a gain for things that check whether a gain happened; likewise an Honor loss of 0 points is not considered a loss for such things." (Emphasis added.)
  No. Zen Faulkes, "Bayushi Saya, already dishonored and Seppuku", 3 Sep 2007
• Q: If Bayushi Saya targets a personality with her base ability, and later that turn the targeted personality commits seppuku, does the seppuku trigger the effects of Saya's ability?
  A: No. Seppuku does not cause an honor loss; it alters honor losses from other sources. Zen Faulkes, "Bayushi Saya vs Seppuku", 14 Aug 2007
• Q: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59979
  Bayushi Saya Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.
  From the Comprehensive Rules about Abilities and Actions E. Action ends The trigger “the action resolves” is the same point in time as “the action ends.”
  Emphases mine
  If resolving an action is the same point in time as the action ending, how is it not instantaneous? In regards to Saya, wouldn't the moment she ends her action (targeting herself) be the trigger to cause her to dishonor herself?
  Just trying to understand. I can see what you mean by running a race not being a specific point in time, but it appears to me that "resolving" is not equivalent to "running a race" but rather "finishing a race".
  Thank you in advance.
  A: I already made the ruling.
  If you are already in the middle of Resolving and Action then that Action does not count for "the next time an action resolves," in its own effects. This time is "this time," not "the next time."
  I'll see about clarifying that line of the Comprehensive Rules to be more accurate. "Before an action resolves," triggers before any effects. That entry might mislead people to believing that it triggers after the action's effects resolve but before any "after an action resolves," Reactions could be played - which is just silly considering step D is titled specifically "D. Action resolves."
  "D. Action resolves" specifically outlines a process to be followed, and in many cases involves a sequence of effects and Reactions to those effects. It can certainly not function as it if were instantaneous. Martin Lund, "Bayushi Saya Targeting Herself follow-up and resolving actio", 3 Aug 2007
• Q: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59950
  *quote* If I were running in a race with you and agreed to give you 3 dollars "after the next race is run," would I give you the money after the current race ended, or the next one? You're already resolving Saya's action, so likewise I'd be inclined to wait for the next action as it says, "after the next time," rather than "the next time after." */quote*
  The more appropriate analogy, I think, would be agreeing to give out 3 dollars after the next time you finish a race. If I tell you this during a race, the next time you finish one will be that very race.
  Or am I misunderstand the timing of when an action "resolves?"
  Thanks!
  A: You are misunderstanding the timing of when an action "resolves."
  "Resolving" an action is an on-going process. It is not an instantaneous trigger.
  "Before" an action resolves, and "after," an action resolves are instantaneous triggers.
  You have to React, "before an action resolves," prior to any of the action's effects happening, and you have to React "after an action resolves," after all the action's immediate effects take place. The time in-between, when the effects are resolving, is "resolving an action."
  Hence "resolve an action," is a process like "run a race," not a instant trigger like "finish a race." Martin Lund, "Bayushi Saya targetting herself followup (2)", 2 Aug 2007
• Q: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=59278&p=763564&hilit=Bayushi+Saya#p763564
  Bayushi Saya Political Open: Target a Personality. After the next time this turn his controller assigns him or an action resolves that he performed, his controller loses Honor equal to his Personal Honor, then he is dishonored.
  Could you clarify why "After the next time ... an action resolves that he performed" does not apply to Saya targeting herself? The way I understand it, Saya's effect on herself starts before her action is finished resolving, and so should cause her to end up dishonored.
  Thanks!
  A: If I were running in a race with you and agreed to give you 3 dollars "after the next race is run," would I give you the money after the current race ended, or the next one?
  You're already resolving Saya's action, so likewise I'd be inclined to wait for the next action as it says, "after the next time," rather than "the next time after." Martin Lund, "Bayushi Saya Targetting herself followup", 2 Aug 2007
• Q: If Bayushi Saya basic targets a personality with her action and later that turn that personality performs an action, what is causing the honor loss, Bayushi Saya or the action the personality performed?
  A: Comprehensive Rules, Source of Effects: "When determining whether targeting, costs, effects or actions come 'from' or are done 'by' a card, look to the card where the thing in question is originally physically printed."
  Follow the ink! Zen Faulkes, "Bayushi Saya", 2 Aug 2007
• Q: A Personality or Follower is performing an action if its controller is the player taking the action, and any of these things is true:
  A: Note the whole "if its controller is the player taking the action," line right there. If you hit another player's Personality with Unrequited Love, that Personality does not "Perform" Unrequited Love. Martin Lund, "Bayushi Saya+Unrequited Love", 31 Jul 2007
• Q: Can Bayushi Saya target herself with her own printed ability, effectively dishonoring herself & losing you honor when the action resolves?
  A: She can target herself, but her ability is not the "next time." She must perform another action for the effects to kick in. Zen Faulkes, "Not experienced Bayushi Saya and her ability", 15 Jul 2007
• Q: Does a player lose honor after removing Daizan from play which was targetet by a Saya before?
  A: Mod request: Please include Experience levels when there is more than one version of a card. Thanks! Zen Faulkes, "Bayushi Saya + Shiba Daizan", 30 May 2007
• Q: Regarding Bayushi Saya, if a person is targeted by her effect and then required to perform and action (Ie Ambush, and rumours suggest Sacrifice of Pawns also applies (Zen or Marty, can you yes/no this?) ) is the honour loss causd by Saya or the dishonoured personality? Would they be able to seppuku in responce to the Ambush/Saya effect?
  A: No. Diamond rules, pg. 88. The honor loss is not due to performing, targeting, or decision making. And I don't understand the Sacrifice of Pawns thing. Zen Faulkes, "Seppuku Timing", 11 May 2005
• Q: What happens if I target the same personality with 3 different Bayushi Saya, and then that personality assigns to attack or performs an action?
  A: Three honor losses, dishonored once, and the other dishonor effects fail (due to being already dishonored). Zen Faulkes, "Multiple Saya question", 22 Apr 2005